I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

and this is where the fun starts for us inch lovin' Americans

adapters, adapters, adapters

Why do this, why use adapters?

The stock master cylinder is metric and therefor uses bubble flared brake lines. So one reason to go the adapter route is if you only have a double flare brake line making kit, or or you have an older (pre 1995 American vehicle) and plan on reusing the original double flared brake lines.
IMG_0997.JPG

these are the bubble adapter fittings, in other words they just fool the master cylinder into thinking there's a brake line in there
IMG_0999.JPG

this allows us to go from Metric bubble flare lines to Standard double flare aka inverted flare brake lines
IMG_1002.JPG

and to use a smaller 3/16" (4.75mm) brake line
IMG_1004.JPG

so a baggie of the bubbles
IMG_1006.JPG

and a different baggie of the little nipples
3-8 - 24 fittings.jpg
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Gregski wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:12 pm these are the bubble fittings, in other words they just fool the master cylinder into thinking there's a brake line in there. this allows us to go from Metric to Standard. and to use a smaller 3/16" (4.75mm) brake line.
*runs and checks old pics for what type of brake line and fittings he bought for this 2 years ago*

Hopefully it's 1/4" and M12s. *crossing fingers*

Surveeey says?:

Image

3/16" and M10s.

Great.

So I'm in the same boat you are, needing these stupid bubble fittings.

Unless I could solder/weld/braze a few inches of 1/4" tubing over top of the 3/16" tubing, and then just flare it directly and re-use my M12s? All to save $8 and probably $25 in shipping. This is for the brakes which... *checks notes* ... apparently stop the vehicle. Well I dunno if that's really that important.

...

Hmm...

Say Gregski... buddy ol' pal... looks like you bought a pack of 15 and only need 2...
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:41 am *runs and checks old pics for what type of brake line and fittings he bought for this 2 years ago*

Hopefully it's 1/4" and M12s. *crossing fingers*

Surveeey says?:

Image

3/16" and M10s.

Great.

So I'm in the same boat you are, needing these stupid bubble fittings.

Unless I could solder/weld/braze a few inches of 1/4" tubing over top of the 3/16" tubing, and then just flare it directly and re-use my M12s? All to save $8 and probably $25 in shipping. This is for the brakes which... *checks notes* ... apparently stop the vehicle. Well I dunno if that's really that important.

...

Hmm...
Matt all is not lost, you sometimes are just a fraction of a second ahead of me in what I am trying to explain. What car are you building, if it is a vehicle with drum brakes in the rear than you will need a Willwood proportioning valve and that one takes the 3/16" tubing that's why I had to step mine down from 1/4" to 3/16" more on this soon

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:41 am
Say Gregski... buddy ol' pal... looks like you bought a pack of 15 and only need 2...
and yes absolutely they are yours for free just message me your address
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

alternative to them 12mm bubble fitting adapters, they do have 12 mm "double flare" fittings for the smaller 3/16" aka 4.75mm lines

if you are like me and don't like adapters (pronounced: "more places to leak")


IMG_1083.JPG
IMG_1085.JPG

Please note these are not bubble ends
IMG_1087.JPG
IMG_1089.JPG
IMG_1091 labeled.jpg
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

if you are installing this iBooster on a vehicle with drum rear brakes you will need a proportioning valve, like this Wilwood [pronounced: "expensive"] brand, think of a proportioning valve as a faucet with a knob you turn to control how much brake fluid goes there, it only has the knob on the line to the rear brakes it only controls the rear aka drum brakes

this guy is what forced me to use the smaller brake lines as it takes the 3/16" and not the 1/4"

Wilwood AMAZON.jpg
IMG_3826.JPG

the plug sticking out of it's butt is just a brake light switch
IMG_3828.JPG
IMG_4009.JPG
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

again all of this is beautifully explained on the EVCreate website here: iBooster in cars with rear drum brakes I am just trying to share my experience of stepping through the process and augment it where I can (so dumb it down)

the proportioning valve can be plumbed in one of two ways:
Proportioning Valve Position.jpg
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Gregski wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:35 pmWhat car are you building, if it is a vehicle with drum brakes in the rear than you will need a Willwood proportioning valve
1970 Opel GT.

Image

Discs in the front, Drums in the back.

Image

I've heard about this proportioning valve, I didn't know if it was mandatory or not.

Hrmph. So, once again, my "$55" cheap solution is actually a $250 not so cheap solution.

Well, for the $200 difference, I think I'd rather make an adapter plate to mount my original Master Cylinder to the booster. (And by "make" I mean "Try to make, get distracted, forget about it for a year, come back to it, give up and pay $200 to not have to mess with it anymore"). Hrm. The choices everyone will have to make.

I've somehow never read that last page on the EVCreate page. The calibration shudder on the Gen1s every time you boot, and the necessity to hold the brake pedal in to calibrate it is also a near deal-breaker for me. Apparently only a Gen 1 issue, the Gen 2 doesn't have the 12v enable line and must calibrate some other way. ... Depends what it does, I hold the brake pedal in when I turn the ignition on anyway, if that'll do, then no problem. But if that tells the booster to calibrate "full pedal depressed = zero braking", and I have to just barely hover the pedal at the start of its travel every damned time I start the car... I'll probably throw the whole thing out and buy a Gen 2.
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

and here is the Honda CRV BOSCH iBooster and master cylinder installed on my 1971 Chevy GMC C10 pick em up, ain't that a thing of beauty? actually NO, no it's not... keep reading !


IMG_4473.JPG

IMG_4476.JPG
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

you see, this is what happens if you do not visit EVCreate.nl and READ, I totally forgot to install the red thingie


this is a 10 pound residual valve as opposed to the black thing above aka the proportioning valve, this red thing is needed if you have rear drum brakes, and both valves work together in concert, again read more about it on EVCreate.nl where Lars explains it properly

Residual Valve.jpg

IMG_0196.JPG

notice I also added the remote canister aka bigger reservoir
IMG_0206.JPG
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

Fun Fact: in the States if you go to NAPA auto parts store and ask for Platform 9 and 3/4 they will take you in the back where they stash premade brake lines of all lengths and shortnesses and fitting combinations, a real shame they don't keep this display in front for the Muggles to see

934.jpg

IMG_0851.JPG

IMG_0853.JPG
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:58 pm 1970 Opel GT.

Image

Discs in the front, Drums in the back.

Image

I've heard about this proportioning valve, I didn't know if it was mandatory or not.

Hrmph. So, once again, my "$55" cheap solution is actually a $250 not so cheap solution.

Well, for the $200 difference, I think I'd rather make an adapter plate to mount my original Master Cylinder to the booster. (And by "make" I mean "Try to make, get distracted, forget about it for a year, come back to it, give up and pay $200 to not have to mess with it anymore"). Hrm. The choices everyone will have to make.

I've somehow never read that last page on the EVCreate page. The calibration shudder on the Gen1s every time you boot, and the necessity to hold the brake pedal in to calibrate it is also a near deal-breaker for me. Apparently only a Gen 1 issue, the Gen 2 doesn't have the 12v enable line and must calibrate some other way. ... Depends what it does, I hold the brake pedal in when I turn the ignition on anyway, if that'll do, then no problem. But if that tells the booster to calibrate "full pedal depressed = zero braking", and I have to just barely hover the pedal at the start of its travel every damned time I start the car... I'll probably throw the whole thing out and buy a Gen 2.
Matt I honestly wonder if that car can be fine with manual brakes and regen if and when you dial in the regen properly


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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Gregski wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:53 pmMatt I honestly wonder if that car can be fine with manual brakes and regen if and when you dial in the regen properly
To my understanding, the reason you use a proportioning valve is because otherwise you're going to have too much stopping power on the rear. And, the rear is only 10% of your braking power. So you'll basically instantly lock up the rear and get into a rear slide.

Regen is nice, but, if regen fails (batteries are full for example, or electronics fail), you still need to be able to stop the car safely. Suddenly going into a rear slide, or abusing the hell out of the drum brakes is not a great idea when you're already likely mid-crisis for some other reason.

It's probably fine, but, the only consequence of me adapting the original MC is that I'll have to actually adapt the original MC. So, for a few hours an a small steel plate, it's probably best to just have brakes that work properly. This rather than having heavily rear-biased brakes to save some time.

One of the first upgrades I want to make to the car is to replace the rear axle and my overly heavy driveline with probably and Outlander rear assembly, and adapt the IRS to replace the live axle. It'll at that point have discs anyways I presume. So I'll hang onto the Honda master cylinder for that eventuality. ... which will probably never happen because there's nothing as permanent as a temporary solution that's good enough.
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:55 pm One of the first upgrades I want to make to the car is to replace the rear axle and my overly heavy driveline with probably and Outlander rear assembly, and adapt the IRS to replace the live axle. It'll at that point have discs anyways I presume. So I'll hang onto the Honda master cylinder for that eventuality. ... which will probably never happen because there's nothing as permanent as a temporary solution that's good enough.
or we start a GoFundYou to get you a proper Tezla small rear drive unit
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

So I asked around on the car forums about this whole residual valve and proportioning valve.

It's been suggested I likely won't need either unless I'm drastically changing the weight balance of the car.

Also, re-re-re-reading the EVcreates page, it seems like the important piece is the (cheaper) residual valve, not the (expensive) proportioning valve.

The residual valve is to replace the built-in residual valve that was likely part of the original master cylinder, and it's not to prevent the rear from locking up, it's to prevent the rear spring from pushing way too far back and delaying the brake fluid from arriving to the drum brakes (instead of the shoes hovering right near the drum ready to move, they'll be seated farther back).

If you put a 4-wheel disc MC onto a drum-rear vehicle, that MC will lack the residual valve.

And, after that, if you still need to fine tune the braking so that the rears don't lock up before the fronts, then you might also need the proportioning valve.

At least that's my understanding, I'm going to run it by the folks on the DIY EC forum too.

With that in mind...

While I was very much wanting to avoid locking up the rear drums before the front discs, I care quite a bit less about whether I have a slightly delayed response on the rear drums, especially considering I will have regen on those wheels anyways (as Greg says above). That means I have a slight delay, on 10% of my braking power, that I rarely use, when I have full regen braking from that axle anyway.
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by lsh3rd »

I'd probably plumb one of these inline with the rear brakes:
https://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders ... =260-10922

I have a similar part (of about 1995 vintage, but still Wilwood) on my '86 Mustang running hydro-boosted '94-'04 Cobra brakes.... it works great!
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

probably one of the more better and least condescending explanations of flares, bubble flares, single flare, double flare, inverter flare, double dare, I don't care videos out there, I suggest you watch it and file it under "More than I ever wanted to know" section of your project





TYPES OF FLARES:

Single Flare aka half ass flare
Singe Flare.jpg


Double Flare aka whole ass flare "American" style
Double Flare.jpg

Bubble Flare, European / the rest of the world flare aka non "American" style
Bouble Flare.jpg
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Pete9008 »

My take on residual valves - there are two circumstances when one can be beneficial.

The first is if the master cylinder/reservoir is mounted low down. In this case brake fluid can drain back from the brake to the master cylinder by gravity leading to a long brake pedal. This can happen with drums or disks (I have a track car with discs all round and the master cylinder down at floor level which needs one) and a 2psi residual valve can help here (any more can cause the brakes to drag).

With drums the seal in the brake cylinder is of a different design and always needs a little positive pressure on it to make sure that air isn't drawn in past it. In this case a 10psi residual valve is usually used and it is normally built into the master cylinder (not sure how ABS systems affect this?). If using an all disk brake master cylinder on a drum braked car this will be needed on the drum circuits. I don't believe that the residual valve does stop the brake shoes moving back too far, this is the job of the mechanical adjuster. If the mechanical adjuster is badly adjusted then 10psi is unlikely to be enough to hold the shoes out (anyone who has tried refitting the springs will be aware of how strong they are!).

Brake balance is a different matter entirely and is likely to be an issue on a rear wheel drive car with a lot of regen. Before setting up properly my track car would lock up on the back first and I can not state strongly enough that you do NOT want this to happen. Even when set up right, and when braking hard (with a lot of weight transfer to the front), it can briefly lock up the rear on harsh downshifts (due to the engine braking). Regen on the back will produce a very similar problem, especially if more battery weight has been added to the front, and could well limit the amount of regen that can safely be used. A proportioning valve is about the only option here.

My conversion is RWD with rear drums and my plan for this is to try and add weight at the rear rather than the front wherever possible, put a very good set of pads in the front brakes, aim to keep the original master cylinder, limit regen and make sure that the ABS/stability control system still works after the conversion!
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

yes The Greg once again took one for the team and subscribed to ALLData to lay his eyeballs on the 2017 Honda CR-V Service Manual, all this to bring you the proper and much debated brake bleeding sequence, so here it is in both native screen shot form as well as cut and pasted text


CONVENTIONAL BRAKE SYSTEM BLEEDING

NOTE:
• Review the Service Precautions before doing repairs or service.
• The reservoir connected to the master cylinder must be at the MAX (upper) level mark at the start of the bleeding procedure and checked after bleeding each wheel. Add fluid as required.
• Before beginning the bleeding procedure, remove the reservoir cap and strainer, and remove any dirt and debris then reinstall the strainer only.
• Bleed the brake system in the following order: front-driver's, front-passenger's, rear-passenger's and rear-driver's.
• There are three different methods used for bleeding brake systems. The method shown here is the preferred manual method for removing the air from the system. For pressure or vacuum bleeding, refer to the tool manufacturer's instructions included with the tool.
• When a rear brake caliper equipped with an electric parking brake is removed and installed, or overhauled (brake hose was disconnected), the bleeding procedure differs from the normal method. First, bleed the brakes using the normal procedure. Second, follow the procedure listed under rear caliper bleed. Third, bleed the brakes again using the nomal procedure. This does not apply when the rear calipers are replaced.
• Unless indicated, the illustrations shown are examples only and may not match your vehicle.



Honda CRV - Conventional Brake Bleeding.jpg
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:55 pm...And, the rear is only 10% of your braking power. So you'll basically instantly lock up the rear and get into a rear slide...
just trying to take a closer look and determine why Matts rear is only delivering 10% of his braking power, can you spot the problem?

IMG_E1161.JPG
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Gregski wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:09 pmjust trying to take a closer look and determine why Matts rear is only delivering 10% of his braking power, can you spot the problem?
Hah.

No, apparently on any vehicle moving forward, 90% of your braking power is the front wheels. Rears are just there as a backup, that's why for a long time they were halfassed with drum brakes.
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

it appears what I would call the pedal sensor is held on by 5 Pt. EPR Torx bolts, don't take this for granted, these are not the dime a dozen 6 point torx we are familiar with


IMG_1229.JPG
IMG_1232.JPG
5 Pt. EPR Torx Plus Sockets.jpg
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

and delivered ahead of schedule, praise be to Bezos !

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IMG_1310.JPG

and we in business
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

I must admit in all my days and days of experience working with this thing, I did not expect this pedal sensor to look like this:


IMG_1318.JPG

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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by Gregski »

and here is what I recon is the part number, the little square doo dad did not make my iPhone go anywhere, but I can't help but wonder if it is the same part number as the one on my Tesla Model S first Gen iBooster

Part Number: 7812 5 170816 (maybe ??? not sure if that's really what it is)



IMG_1328.JPG


and I think that reads: Made in Spain (ahem, Johannes... you have some explaining to do?!)

IMG_1330.JPG
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Re: I bought a Honda CR-V iBooster Gen 1 - Now what?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Gregski wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:38 pmit appears what I would call the pedal sensor is held on by 5 Pt. EPR Torx bolts, don't take this for granted, these are not the dime a dozen 6 point torx we are familiar with
As someone once said to me when I asked if they had a security torx bit set...

"Yeah, here's my security torx bit set"

And then they slid over their drill bits.

Or maybe it was a dremel and a slot screwdriver.

Either way. Eeesh. $30 + shipping for the 1 bit you'll need, once.
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