openinverter forum

I must confess i started a new project. A while ago i found a deal for Ampera inverter. I was curious of how it works. Then TomDB helped me with wiring decoding and i decided to try and make a spare inveter for Mazda if old one dropped.
After some problems with signals a friend joined me and bought another inverter for his car. After some trials with Johannes core i made an interface board that is capable of translating signals of Ampera inverter. Now even the Fault output works and i succesfully tried it in my Mazda. Motor was very jumpy on driveoff with the same settings from my car. I think this is because of better DClink cap and more powerful IGBTs. I can feel the excess power.

That helped me decide to start a new car conversion. I will use Peugeot 406 Coupe 3.0. It is a beautiful car with lots of space for batteries.
For that purpose i also bought a broken Ampera car. It showed the wreckage was only on outside. Every internal component aside of airbags was still working. I got another inverter, DCDC converter, 3kW charger, electric cabin heater, AC compressor and of course one good 16kWh battery.
Almost everything i got off there works on CAN bus. Even BMS is already there it just needs to receive commands for it to work. I also have a EVTVdue board with single CAN chip and eeprom. I would like to use that to signal my devices on the line.
Also i bought Macchina M2 with EVTV software and if i connect it to our good Ampera under the dash i can get signals in software. Lots of data little to use...
But now I am trying to force the 406 BSI to play with me. It is not CAN its the old French VAN bus. No luck for now. I did get the old tester and it finds the BSI and components. It doesnt work since i cant start the engine and transmission is dead. So i decided to fool BSI so it doesnt enter ECO mode after 30min. I will keep the appearance of engine running by inserting motor RPM signal. This could be achieved with doobedoobedo schetch for RPM conversion. I will take signal from inverter and translate it to RPM indicators language. However below 800rpm circuit will keep appearance of motor at idle to keep BSI happy. I will probably have to do the same thing for Speedo in a car since i will remove transmission.

Up to now i tested the motor on desk with Ampera inverter on 360Vdc battery. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15

I have tested various components and recorded response to CAN msg. https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/
Since i have motor and gearbox from Leaf i will just use that. No shifting required. 1:8 gear that ends at cca 10000rpm and 150km/h. It would go further using field weakening, maybe 20%...
I will use electronic reverse function. Motor inverter switches between phase wires and motor spins backwards. There will be some logic involved to inhibit switching if motor is turning over 100rpm for safety etc....
I will just use switch with safety cover so changing direction will require two intentional gestures.
ABS system is independent from engine systems, so car will brake the same. I will add UP30 Hella vacuum pump for servo and a vacuum switch. Motor will augument with regen.
Power steering i will probably use stock Peugeot system i will just replace mechanical pump with electrical 12V Astra G pump. It works automaticaly according to pressure demand. I also have one Ampera EPAS steering axle but as of to date it doesnt work.
Charger i will use 3kW Eltek charger from a broken Volvo hybrid. It works good with CAN commands.
DCDC i will use from Ampera. It gives 1.5kW of 12Vdc power and can be controlled by CAN.
Heater i will use one dishwasher heater which can provide 5kW power from 360Vdc. Works analog through 85°C thermostat.... I may also install Webasto Thermotop V heater from VW diesel car. Lately i see i use my Mazda in all weather a lot and Webasto comes handy...
BMS i intend to use stock if i can figure the code, otherwise i may ask Johannes.
AC i will try to keep. I will use Ampera AC compressor. I just have to figure the correct signals. It is controlled by CAN bus.

Bosch VCU document is important for Peugeot and Citroen vehicles I will also post my progress here.

I also had a recent donation of an ampera inverter. Must go get it running:)

Nice project with lots of new approaches, I like it. How will you adapt the AC pipes to the new compressor?
I think the direction change logic you describe is already implemented in the inverter.

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:48 pm I also had a recent donation of an ampera inverter. Must go get it running:)

@Jack Bauer
I am already running two Ampera inverters with HV battery. They currently run Leaf motor, but i tried to run my Mazda on one and it was great. They do have low thermal mass and they get hot quickly. You have to keep the liquid flowing. The second one recently developed attitude and is throwing desat in my face! I have to see if it is IGBT or my brain... I still have one side as a backup though .

Driving Ampera inverter is really easy comparing to some of the others. Here engineers didnt bother to code anything besides colour of the wires. Everything is neat and within reach. Bring 5Vdc logic and Inverter works!

Hah! I do have one Ampera transmission with two motors sitting in my garage. It is one heavy mother with that copper and laminated steel inside. Could be worth inspecting it and the clutch system. It supposed to be really simple on the inside but on the outside its run by CAN.

@johu
I have pipes from Ampera car. I will use the compressor side pipes to fit in it and will get flexible fittings made to fit on the exchanger side. I know a guy that makes hoses for house AC. Shouldnt be that different from the car. You do want the ends preserved though because they are compressor specific!

Well meanwhile i wait for Johannes to ammend PMSM regen behaviour in software i tried to play with Lebowski board a bit. And it seems i was successful.
Well mostly anyway. Board still runs in sensorless. That is why motor wants to jump back and forth. However i intend to glue 3x hall sensors inside motor windings at 120deg. That will gove me softer start performance. I hope to make it this weekend. Next comes the Pug dissassembly.
See the video and have mercy . My sloppy pronounciation is accounted to a lack of sleep and general spring weariness.

https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/201 ... -inverter/

Hi Arber,

yes commanding 0 torque is a bit of a challenge without current control loop. But I think it can be done. Most important parameters in that respect: boost, fweak and ampmin. The first two have to be setup so that the AC current is constant throughout the none-weakened rev range. Then ampmin can be set to generate only very little to no regen at 0 throttle (maybe set ampnom=0 for testing). The lower ampmin, the MORE unwanted regen. If ampmin is too high the motor will start to spin at 0 throttle.
If the boost/fweak slope is incorrect the torque behaviour will change over the rev range. I.e. you can set it up to work perfectly at low revs and find there is still unwanted regen or acceleration at higher revs.

I hope this works, otherwise -> current control

The results on your blog look very promising, so you are actually driving now?

johu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:28 pm Hi Arber,

yes commanding 0 torque is a bit of a challenge without current control loop. But I think it can be done. Most important parameters in that respect: boost, fweak and ampmin. The first two have to be setup so that the AC current is constant throughout the none-weakened rev range. Then ampmin can be set to generate only very little to no regen at 0 throttle (maybe set ampnom=0 for testing). The lower ampmin, the MORE unwanted regen. If ampmin is too high the motor will start to spin at 0 throttle.
If the boost/fweak slope is incorrect the torque behaviour will change over the rev range. I.e. you can set it up to work perfectly at low revs and find there is still unwanted regen or acceleration at higher revs.

I hope this works, otherwise -> current control

The results on your blog look very promising, so you are actually driving now?

Hi

I did seem to notice when i changed some parameters inverter was still running PWM applying ampnom like you said. How would you go about setting ampmin? Should i turn the motor by a drill and set the ? Not a bad idea

With Lebowski I seem to have control of motor in RPM range from 1000rpm to 10000rpm.
The lower part however is disconcerting with PWM floating around and motor banging back and forth even without throttle input. I have a lot of EMI between motor and inverter. When i connect both cases i get sparks and ozone smell. If i connect GND and inverter case controller refuses to start.
I think this thing is good to go into a car, but a lot will have to be done in EMI shielding.
Up in the rev region there is not much problem motor just purrs...

EDIT: Well by now i figured out i needed only to add one ! 100nF decoupling cap from reset pin to GND and crazy 200Vac voltage dissapeared. Vudu magic....
Controler now works with sensors or sensorless and can run with borh cases connected to common GND. Success!

A

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:48 pm I also had a recent donation of an ampera inverter. Must go get it running:)

I have some Lebowski interface boards left. If you are interested i can send one to you to experiment with now that i got it to work.
It will work surprisingly quickly. I have precharge sorted out to any voltage you want. There is also a place to put Arduino Nano but its signals would have to be connected additionaly. I will post DS file soon as i detail what components i actually use.

I am also putting together wiring of relays or opto couplers to change polarity of signals from 12V towards GND. Johannes uses 12V to signal 1 but Lebowski needs to pull input to GND to enable it. I want to have possibility to use Lebowski or Johannes controler on the same wiring bundle in a car.

EDIT: I figured it would be easier to just use one protoboard with SN74S04 inverter IC. That way i can easily invert signals to get it to face GND instead of 12V! I just have to lower 12V input voltage to 5Vdc.

A

That would be great. Thanks Arber.

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:13 am That would be great. Thanks Arber.

Send me PM, i am not sure if i have your adress.

I pulled the engine out with everything engine bed, disks, shocks and transmission. I am now keeping subframe in my garage and are trying to design motor mounts for Leaf motor. I managed to dissassemble both Peugeot and Leaf driveshafts.
Leaf right one has additional bearing that keeps the shaft aligned and keeps the same length of both driveshafts as well as both angles of movement.
406C and Leaf are almost the same width and the shafts are a good fit. Pugs shaft is wider tube which will help me with mating one onto the other. That is exactly what i did. I cut both shafts where they intersected and I got them to Stane and he turned Leaf shafts and took off 0.5mm of material so that leaf shaft went into the 406c shaft for about 60mm, Then we drilled into 406c shaft from the side to get access to the underlying Leaf shaft. We then welded along the joint circumference AND into the hole. That meant that bothj shafts are melted into one and no ammount of torque will turn the inner shaft inside the outer.

Amazing job. Where did you get the Leaf shafts?

johu wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 9:56 pm Amazing job. Where did you get the Leaf shafts?

Hi J

Yes i also find it quite nice. What is amazing is that Stane, the guy who last time supplied the wine btw, used only a day to make them. Truly good machine work, hats off.
I bought leaf drive shafts like a year ago when i got Leaf motor. I could get Leaf motor with gearbox, but shafts are harder to find. They are quite expensive as new part.
WARNING! Different first generation Leaf cars (EM61 and EM57 motor) shafts are very similar down to a few millimeters, BUT really do not fit! I got some shafts here in Slovenia that were from EM57 car and i couldnt fit the bearing mount and splines were no fit. Be carefull with P/Ns when ordering.

Leaf 2011 with EM61 motor PNs
39100-3NA0A RH driveshaft with bearing
39101-3NA0A LH driveshaft short

Leaf 2012 onward with EM57 motor PNs
39100-3NF2A RH driveshaft with bearing
39101-3NF2A LH driveshaft short

I got them from Norway from their "car parts forum". You have to be carefull to make sure to also get the intermediate shaft bearing mount on the right side. This is a pain to make and original is the best.

For driveshafts
https://finndel.no/bildeler.aspx?dk=0382&bk=165501
https://finndel.no/bildeler.aspx?dk=0384&bk=165501

And motor
https://finndel.no/bildeler.aspx?dk=0137&bk=165501

I finished the subframe mounts today. I painted it with epoxy paint and finished matte black.
The 3rd mount gave me some problems, but i solved it quickly.
https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/201 ... extension/

Also i did some research on Pug electric system. I quickly found the speedo sensor and RPM. I tried to get speed with my cordless drill and behold!
If i run my drill at 1030RPM i would get 115km/h, which is the driveshaft RPM at that speed. So it seems that speedo needs to see true shaft RPM.
That will ease my work. I will now just get the motor RPM from inverter. I will condition signal so it will output RPM*58 to the RPM sensor. I will recalculate this signal at 1:8 and use result to signal speedo. One Arduino should be good. Job done!
https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/201 ... ditioning/

I did try to fit Astra G HPAS pump to the rear of engine compartment. I think it will work there. I need some flexible hydraulic hoses/pipes.

Subframe is in! I have to say it looks great. There is so much space in front now that i am thinking if i am carefull, i wont need to cut the rear seats at all.
Only the trunk i will cut and weld a new box in. In front i will have to make some boxes to suspend cells.

What i am troubled with are the driveshafts, Now there is no more 200kg motor upfront car is sitting with its nose up and both shafts stick out of gearbox at quite an angle. Also you can feel the resistance if you want to turn the wheels. Maybe it will be better when i load a bunch of batteries in the hood. What do you think does it look to you odd that downward shaft angle?

The front suspension is unloaded? I would put the car down and load it similar weight as would be expected with batteries etc before going further with installation of the subframe.

In fact, would be best to make these ride height measurements before pulling the engine and transmission out.

The ride height can be adjusted with shorter/longer springs. Ideally you'd want the driveshaft angles to be close to original as possible. The driveshafts can tolerate some angle of course but straighter is better!

Hah! Shafts or gearbox was not a problem.
When i was trying to move a car back and forth i felt some strange resistance from gearbox through shafts.
After much fussing about i realized all three phase cables were lying on gearbox alu housing! They were in contact. And of course when i tried to move the car forward that would short the windings and create resistance. When i took cables apart everything moved smooth.

I agree i will have to load the front with batteries. Now it looks like a speedboat...

Ha, damn sync motors
Polo is also a bit light on the nose and starts misbehaving at higher speeds or when it's wet. I have artificially jacked up the back with harder springs and spacers but that just hides the symptom.

Yes you should load it down and I'll have to load down Touran as well.

OK first obstacle detected!
I removed Pugs throttle pedal and tried how Prius pedal would fit in its place.
I like Prius throttle pedal very much. It is 2x hall sensors very easy to connect. Both sensors can output from 0.8V to 3.6V or 3.3V.

However now i see there are some pipes in the way in Pug. I see now why Peugeot would want to bend its pedal in some unnatural angle.
I will buy Auris pedal since it is made out of metal rod like Pugs and that will allow me to weld the Pug pedal rod to the Auris pedal.
Also i will have to make a flat holder interface for the pedal to be bolted onto.

EDIT: I got one Auris pedal and it uses totally the same connector than Prius. A perfect match for me.
I performed some operation and now i have a throttle that goes around the steering column.

johu wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 6:16 am Ha, damn sync motors
Polo is also a bit light on the nose and starts misbehaving at higher speeds or when it's wet. I have artificially jacked up the back with harder springs and spacers but that just hides the symptom.

Yes you should load it down and I'll have to load down Touran as well.

Hm... now it came back to me! In case you want to artificially reduce the front ride height, you can try to get some sports springs, OR you can use a torch and heat up the upper spring arch in one segment to red color. That will release tension in that area and that spring section will cease to be a spring. Result will be immediate. It is also irreversible for DIYer, so take care when you do it.

Some progress update.
Rear and front boxes are in. HPAS Pump is installed and hoses are connected.
Vacuum pump is fitted and hose is connected.
DCDC is now in and i choose 12V AGM 30Ah high drain battery to fit over the rear right wheel well.
Charger is installed under the central shaft.

I have to install inverter mount. I think i can fit it on the side. There is enough space to connect the phase cables and everything.
I need to install the control and CAN wires.
I have to decide how to connect the HV wiring.
I need to put a separate fuse/contactor box in front of the engine fuse box.

RPM indicator is till not responding. Also A/C clutch pin remains dead.
I managed to reduce DTIs down to a throttle position error and transmission computer error. BSM cand throw crankshaft error from time to time, but that is it. It seems ABS and airbags are working.

I measured space under the hood and made a model of front box cross section to give me a feel how high the box will sit under the hood. I found out i have like 4cm of space above the engine space, since the hood is curved upwards a bit. So i decided to designed a box in full height 28cm. That will allow me to install the Volt batteries standing. This will take less space up front.
But in the end i had to account for the front curves. I must be able to replace the light bulb and service the connectors there. So i decided to take an edge off from the right side of the box. Material will be 3mm aluminum. While i got the box made i designed the fittings and frame to install the box.
The simplest method was to simply weld an inverted U channel into motor space. I decided against that since it would restrict access to component dissassembly in case i should need to take something out. What i decided on is the angle fittings welded on to car frame with a bit of console on both sides.
Console will accept U channel frame fastened by M8 bolts and that will carry the weight of the front battery.
On to the U channel and under the box i will adapt a straight brace to carry the weight and keep the box in correct (slightly canted forward) position.
The box will be fastened to the brace by M6 bolts with countersunk heads so the box will have a smooth surface inside.
Also i decided to bolt inverter to the battery box side. This will give me more space for cable routing. The front fittings will carry another U channel, but box will lie on it directly. I welded that with my new MIG inverter welder with flux wire. I consider the process rather easy. The device is easy to setup. 0.8mm wire is elegant and good for most sheet metal. The only real problem is flux emits a lot of smoke that shields the arc. This remains on the weld as ash that has to be cleaned off after. Otherwise the welds are strong and good looking.
To fit the box onto carrying members i used countersunk 6mm bolts. They are now hidden and surface of the box is almost smooth. Good enough to place the batteries inside on a 3mm rubber matt.
In the end i painted the parts.

Very nice work, as always!
Lots easier then me fitting the batteries under the car. But I'm still under the illusion that I don't have to compromise luggage space. That said, you aren't, either.

johu wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:39 am Very nice work, as always!
Lots easier then me fitting the batteries under the car. But I'm still under the illusion that I don't have to compromise luggage space. That said, you aren't, either.

I am quite surprised how larger this car is from Mazda. I can actually fit 80 of 102 Kokam batteries in my Mazda just in Peugeot front box!
Volt cells however are a bit more clumsy. Maybe i could just split them into 48V packs and connect them in 2P while lying on the side.
And the rear box is also huge. I just hope DMV will not give me problems because it is so low under the car. I mean i installed it so the bottom is higher than suspension torque axis. So in theory i should be good.... well see.

I now think i will use my own design BMS. It is just analog comparator with some transistors and low voltage triger. You can have an opto and NO connection to signal turtle mode to inverter... minimalist, very Russian we say, which doesnt mean a bad thing, as it works in adverse conditions.
It works without my interference in my Mazda for some 4 years now. I bet there are spiders nesting there now and that is a good thing.

Last month i had an issue with ECU throwing an error "Engine coolant temperature too high", which is just one of many errors because engine is no longer there . Oh well i thought and went through many temp sensors this car has. Surprisingly nothing worked! It was not a light error because red stop sign was shown on dash and start circuit wouldnt work. In the end i left it there and worked on vacuum and steering systems.
Recently i revisited it and verified every GND wire is still there. Then i used Arduino to simulate RPM to sensor wires...yes i cut those wires to lengthen them towards my contact box just about the same time error appeared DOH!
Well immediately after i connected one of the sensor wires to Arduino output a relay clicked and i guess interlockeed GND to ECU and error went away.

GRR..... well now i know even RPM sensor is important.

And of course everything works, but i cant get the dial to move! I suspect i have to engage everyting in correct order as it was with original engine. And of course i only supply signal to one side of the wire. The other side is in the air. I will have to provide opposite signal to that one similar to original RPM inductive sensor. How to do that effectively?

1. I will try one transistor amplifier with transformer and two wires on the other end.
2. If former doesnt work i will try halfh bridge amplifier.

In other newes i added oil to steering pump and it works.
I got a better check valve and i put it between pump and vacuum shitch for pump to stop the hysteresis. No need for a vacuum reservoir.
I filled motor gearbox with oil - i only needed 1L of Dexron 3. I think there was still oil under the driveshaft level.
I installed one low profile coolant radiator with bosch 12V pump. I connected the hoses from inverter to motor via the charger and added Y connectio for the coolant tank. I have the universal mix-all fluid available.
I spliced and lengthened all relevant cables from engine wiring to have access to sensors if needed.
I made charger port and AC wiring to charger.
I am preparing to permanently install battery box under the dash and put inverter on it.
Also i got one Webasto Thermotop EVO 5kW diesel heater and will install it under the left front light. There is quite some space there. I am not sure where to put oil tank yet.

See details on blog.
https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/