Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

I followed it as far as it appeared I could go. They were simply not interested in re-considering their position on this. Having said that, it can't hurt if they receive more complaints this way so I encourage everyone to actually complain and add weight to our argument.

While I believe DVLA need correcting on this, for the good of all, I intend first to fully exhaust all possibilities that don't require any financial input from myself as from a purely selfish point of view, I would have to weigh that against the potential savings if we can get them to change. Right now that's a BIG if and any money I do throw needs to be aimed at the vehicles rather than correcting DVLA. This shouldn't cost anyone anything. They are doing it wrong and need to be put right. As the victims we shouldn't have to put hands in pockets to do this.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Peter »

I have been following this thread with keen interest and I am wondering if the rules for conversions changed ?? If so is that the reason for the delays or negative responses from DVLA. My vehicle is a 2002 Smart + SDU and I sent off the V5 in 2018, got one letter back mentioning what was required and so followed the most obvious route which was to put pen to paper with pictures on headed notepaper from the garage who helped in a small way. See my posts on page 1. After that the V5 came back with change of fuel to Electric but still had emission value, however tax is zero. Hope that helps.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Peter wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:47 pm I have been following this thread with keen interest and I am wondering if the rules for conversions changed ?? If so is that the reason for the delays or negative responses from DVLA. My vehicle is a 2002 Smart + SDU and I sent off the V5 in 2018, got one letter back mentioning what was required and so followed the most obvious route which was to put pen to paper with pictures on headed notepaper from the garage who helped in a small way. See my posts on page 1. After that the V5 came back with change of fuel to Electric but still had emission value, however tax is zero. Hope that helps.
That would be acceptable. Doesn't matter what the V5 states as the emissions, as long as VED is zero. Trouble is, they are completely inconsistent on this and when pressed have stated that post 2001 cars CANNOT be zero rated, when they should be according to the regs and then in some cases they let them pass, as in your case. They need a firm and correct policy on this. Post 2001 cars should be allowed to be VED free, same as for all electric cars from before that date (and also after 2017, but less of an issue). This is an error on their part that they refuse to correct, or even acknowledge.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Just to add that I fully realise EVs will not remain VED free forever. That will of course change as the government figures a way to claw back lost revenue from VED and fuel. The point is that cars registered between 2001 and 2017 should be treated the same in this regard, i.e. as an EV, same as earlier and later cars. As I said, the regs do make this clear, but DVLA are unable to understand this. Hence ongoing discussions about this, here and elsewhere.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by catphish »

Peter wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:47 pm I have been following this thread with keen interest and I am wondering if the rules for conversions changed ?? If so is that the reason for the delays or negative responses from DVLA. My vehicle is a 2002 Smart + SDU and I sent off the V5 in 2018, got one letter back mentioning what was required and so followed the most obvious route which was to put pen to paper with pictures on headed notepaper from the garage who helped in a small way. See my posts on page 1. After that the V5 came back with change of fuel to Electric but still had emission value, however tax is zero. Hope that helps.
By the letter of the law, this is absolutely what they *should* do. You clearly got lucky with whichever member of staff processed your request.

What we want is for this to be applied consistently. The only way to do so if for someone who doesn't get the right result to challenge it all the way up, to court if necessary. The problem is the potential cost of doing so.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by mikeselectricstuff »

DVLA reverts fuel type on V5 and demands back VED....

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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

It just gets worse and worse. Something has to be done about DVLA.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

Proabably a wastw of time, but a conversion company has started a petition https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliament- ... onversions
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Wayne Campbell »

Bigpie wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:07 pm Proabably a wastw of time, but a conversion company has started a petition https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliament- ... onversions

Maybe so but it does 2 things, it lets them know that we are on their tail but also the new Transport Minister for Scotland is our local MP so she can pick up the ball after we make the initial noise about it. We also have the the BBC environmental correspondent in our arsenal and if he gets wind that the DVLA are blocking this, then that says the UK government has created LEZs for monetary gain.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

:D Have you written to your MP too? we've got letters gone to 5 or 6 MPs now. bobby_come_lately is trying to get a journo to cover it too. I've written to SoS for transport, but no response. Strangely the ZeroEV Porsche is still registered as electric even though they've been changing other's back.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Wayne Campbell »

Bigpie wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:46 pm :D Have you written to your MP too? we've got letters gone to 5 or 6 MPs now. bobby_come_lately is trying to get a journo to cover it too. I've written to SoS for transport, but no response. Strangely the ZeroEV Porsche is still registered as electric even though they've been changing other's back.


This is the first time its concerned us as we are nearly ready to Mot a 2014 vehicle, we did think it was possible to change the fuel type but did not think we could get free road tax. We did this of the back of the 2 guys that have struggled this week the T5 and the Mazda RX. We always believed that the MOT should be done first to change the fuel type to electric and this would then change the records at the DVLA but it seems that not all MOT testers know they need to select the Make an New Vehicle record : Engine and fuel type - we have just found this out today, speaking to a tester as he logged in and tried it. We have not spoken to our MP as yet as we were just alerted to this on Friday when someone emailed asking if we could help. We will keep pushing on this as it needs to be addressed. We checked the Zero EV Boxter which is still showing petrol and the Spectre 2010 Defender which is still Diesel. Let's hope that all our efforts are recognised and a change can be made that works for everyone.

I will ask the BBC correspondent to do a story if they dig their heels in.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Wayne Campbell »

Just a wee heads up folks someone on LinkedIn picked up my petition and forwarded it to the head of EVs at OZEV so we are making roads in, no pun intended !
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

I've emailed OZEV too, with no response but the issue isn't with the law, it's the DVLA interpretation it wrongly, IMHO. Maybe we could crowd fund some legal advice from someone versed in the VERA act.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

I put in a FOI with the DVLA for numbers of vehicles post 2001 originally registered vehicles. Their response is below.
Screenshot 2022-02-07 at 1.05.46 pm.png
It seems updating the Fuel Type isn't an issue.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Bigpie wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:21 pm I've emailed OZEV too, with no response but the issue isn't with the law, it's the DVLA interpretation it wrongly, IMHO. Maybe we could crowd fund some legal advice from someone versed in the VERA act.
That is exactly the point, the law already allows for such changes. It may be that the only final answer is to take DVLA to court so they will have to then follow the ruling. Having said that, the government should simply tell DVLA to allow (encourage even) these changes as it is part of their overall agenda to reduce emissions.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by dadiowe »

As per bigpie post,

"We always believed that the MOT should be done first to change the fuel type to electric and this would then change the records at the DVLA but it seems that not all MOT testers know they need to select the Make an New Vehicle record : Engine and fuel type - we have just found this out today, speaking to a tester as he logged in and tried it."

I spoke to Chris Hazel today at Zero EV, who was very helpful. He suggested the same route as above, which he has had success with. He also said that the DVLA are asking for a Form V627/1, which is a built up vehicle inspection report. He also said that the DVLA have sent an inspector to confirm the details of an installation.

Chris has a theory that there is some confusion between an imported car and a UK registered car, as there is a rule that imported cars can't change there fuel type if they are made after 2001. He said that he had searched through all the DVLA guidance and could not find a similar rule for uk cars.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

dadiowe wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:31 pm …Chris has a theory that there is some confusion between an imported car and a UK registered car, as there is a rule that imported cars can't change there fuel type if they are made after 2001. He said that he had searched through all the DVLA guidance and could not find a similar rule for uk cars.
I have spoken to Chris about this process, but he is wrong about any difference between imported and UK cars. There is no such distinction in the regs (i.e. the actual law).

DVLA's problem is that the Schedule that specifies tax rates for 2001-2017 regd. cars states that the tax rate is based on the emissions and that value cannot be subsequently changed. This is actually understandable as otherwise it would open the door to any Tom, Dick or Harry claiming they changed the engine to one that makes less and so they should pay less. That would be impossible to administer. However…

Before needing to even look at that Schedule, the main provisions of the regs state that some vehicles are exempt and those are specified in a different Schedule, which unequivocally states that electrically propelled cars (regd. before 2017) are EXEMPT vehicles. There is NO restriction on this definition. None at all. An EV first regd. before 2017 is exempt and hence no need to even look at the Schedule concerning tax rates because those vehicles are EXEMPT, just like other classes of vehicle like snow ploughs and such like, that DVLA are happy to accept as exempt. But not cars as they insist on reading the tax rates Schedule which says emissions cannot be changed. However, that's irrelevant as there is the OVERRIDING EXEMPTION for electrically propelled cars (hybrids are NOT exempt vehicles) first regd. before 2017.

DVLA are simply incorrectly interpreting these regs and I've had a long discussion with them about this and am completely aware of their position and why, but the truth of the matter is they are WRONG.

Annoyingly and confusingly, their staff have been inconsistent about this and actually re-classified some cars (as in Chris's Zero EV case) and even worse, they are now apparently rescinding their re-classification on at least some of those cars they let through and are now forcefully changing them back to petrol/diesel Type of Fuel. Then by far the most heinous act is they are actually trying to claim all the back tax that the owner has not been paying as DVLA said it was no longer required. This is ignorant and arrogant incompetence at its worst.

However, there is no mention in the regs about where the car was originally registered. Chris was obviously just told this by someone at DVLA who in general clearly demonstrate time and time again how they don't know what they're doing.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by catphish »

eUKenGB wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:16 pm Before needing to even look at that Schedule, the main provisions of the regs state that some vehicles are exempt and those are specified in a different Schedule, which unequivocally states that electrically propelled cars (regd. before 2017) are EXEMPT vehicles. There is NO restriction on this definition. None at all. An EV first regd. before 2017 is exempt and hence no need to even look at the Schedule concerning tax rates because those vehicles are EXEMPT, just like other classes of vehicle like snow ploughs and such like, that DVLA are happy to accept as exempt. But not cars as they insist on reading the tax rates Schedule which says emissions cannot be changed. However, that's irrelevant as there is the OVERRIDING EXEMPTION for electrically propelled cars (hybrids are NOT exempt vehicles) first regd. before 2017.
This is precisely my interpretation of the legislation too. I am strongly of the opinion that paragraph 20G exempts *all* electric vehicles, regardless of how their tax would otherwise have been calculated.

It would in my opinion be nonsense to claim that the vehicle is not an electrically powered vehicle, just because its CO2 emissions figure cannot be legally changed.

However, it is clear from the responses from the DVLA and from Rachael Maclean here: https://highvoltagebeetle.blogspot.com/ ... e.html?m=1 that the DVLA have no intention of changing their minds on this, despite how we clearly believe they're wrong. The question who has the resources to initiate the necessary judicial review here, and will doing so only increase the likelihood of legislation clamping down on vehicle modifications?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by dadiowe »

Just reading the "An EV first regd. before 2017 is exempt".
Does that imply that as the cars we are converting that were registered post 2001 were first registered as, petrol, deisel or hybrid and are therefore not exempt.
Not trying to cause a conflict or anything just wondering what the DVLA thought process is.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

dadiowe wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:17 pm Just reading the "An EV first regd. before 2017 is exempt".
Does that imply that as the cars we are converting that were registered post 2001 were first registered as, petrol, deisel or hybrid and are therefore not exempt.
Not trying to cause a conflict or anything just wondering what the DVLA thought process is.
Not sure what your confusion is, but Part 5 of the regs unequivocally and unambiguously states the following:-

(1) No vehicle excise duty shall be charged in respect of a vehicle if it is an exempt vehicle.
(2) Schedule 2 specifies descriptions of vehicles which are exempt vehicles.

Schedule 2 is then equally clear and states:-

An electrically propelled vehicle is an exempt vehicle. (provided not registered after 31 March 2017 as they are dealt with by Schedule 1)

So any 'electrically propelled vehicle' that was first registered in the UK before 2017 is an 'exempt vehicle'.

This clear statement of law is being violated by DVLA's refusal to re-classify any pre 2017 conversion. The above OVERRIDES anything else that the regs may imply about any particular vehicle.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by dadiowe »

Not really confused just concerned that "electrically propelled vehicle' that was first registered in the UK before 2017 is an 'exempt vehicle.
Whereas it does not say an electrically powered vehicle that was first registered as something other than an electric vehicle is an exempt vehicle.
I am just worried about the words "first registered".
Still until we can somehow get this clarified it does not matter what our opinions are.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by dadiowe »

Update,
I have just had an email from Dave, the RX8 guy, telling me he used the method for having an electrically powered vehicle Mot tested as its first test.
The order that everything has to be entered at the test centre is important but he now has a current MOT :).
Dave has a you tube channel, https://www.youtube.com/user/horndoggie999, and is going to do a video explaining the procedure.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

dadiowe wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:07 pm Not really confused just concerned that "electrically propelled vehicle' that was first registered in the UK before 2017 is an 'exempt vehicle.
Whereas it does not say an electrically powered vehicle that was first registered as something other than an electric vehicle is an exempt vehicle.
I am just worried about the words "first registered".
Still until we can somehow get this clarified it does not matter what our opinions are.
The 'Fuel Type' when first registered is not relevant. All taxation is based on when the 'vehicle' was first registered without reference to fuel type at the time of registration. Just as with pre 2001 cars that were taxed based on their capacity. That first taxation date does not relate to the engine size at that time and if the capacity is subsequently changed, then the applicable VED changes to suit.

To be clear, Schedule 1 states:-

(1) An electrically propelled vehicle is an exempt vehicle.
(2) But a vehicle is not an exempt vehicle by reason of this paragraph if—
  • (a) it is a vehicle to which Part 1AA of Schedule 1 applies (light passenger vehicles registered on or after 1 April 2017), and
  • (b) its price exceeds £40,000.
So (1) is all encompassing but with the exception of vehicles specified in (2). There is nothing that refers to fuel type of the vehicle when first registered, so I wouldn't worry about that, especially as that is NOT what is confusing DVLA. I had extensive discussions with them on this, at higher levels than just one of their minions on the telephone. Their problem is they insist on applying Schedule 1 and ignoring the overriding 'Exempt vehicles' provision. THAT is the problem. That is exactly what they have stated, i.e. they insist on applying Schedule 1. There is no doubt about where or how DVLA is confused. They are ignoring 'exempt vehicles' when it relates to cars which is not what the regs state, it's just how DVLA are determined to apply the law. But they are wrong.

Anyway, hope it is clear exactly where the problem lies.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

Did you go as far through their complaints procedure as the independent review? Parliamentary ombudsman?
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisat ... -procedure

After these 2 are exhausted, the only remaining option is expensive legal action, can't see any DIY'er having that kind of bank balance to risk.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Parliamentary ombudsman sounds like a good next step as did not try that yet.

Not sure how much it would cost to take DVLA to court. Maybe legal aid? If they are trying to claim all the back tax, it might be a good option.
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