Converting a hybrid to all-electric

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Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by johu »

The idea of the century might have spawned in the Lexus support thread today :D
jnsaff wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:33 pm I’m even wondering whether it would be a good idea to get a whole GS450h just to replace the ice with batteries and have a minimum hassle conversion?
So did a very quick research and found this:


It a California based company that turns any Toyota hybrid into a plug-in hybrid. Also a few hobbyists did the same

But thats not what we want, we want BEV, right 8-)

So here are some quick thoughts of regular EV conversion vs. Hybrid to EV conversion

Advantages:
  • Much less mechanical work - just replace fuel tank and/or engine with batteries and weld the engine input shaft shut.
  • Less electrical work - Most DC wiring is already done
  • When using a plug-in hybrid even charging infrastructure is present
  • Less bureaucracy - Since the HV electrical system stays mostly unchanged you should get the car roadworthy without EMC tests
Disadvantages:
  • much less choice of cars - obviously no classic cars
  • Maybe not hugely powerful unless messing with the inverter - or am I wrong?
  • Possibly complex task to fool the hybrid system into thinking that the engine is still there
  • stm32-foc becomes redundant ;)
Please keep info coming on this topic. Have you done it? Have you seen it? What are you thoughts?
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by Jack Bauer »

I think it can certainly be done. Sadly, my favorite automaker has few hybrids and none of those to my liking so I'll just have to plod on doing boring conversions:) That said, here is a video from back in the day that proved the concept :
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by arber333 »

Hm... Why not choose cars that have Electric motors split from gas engines.

Mitsubishi Outlander
Volvo V60 Hybrid
Volvo XC90

then there is:
Chevy Volt/Opel Ampera
Last one is perfect since it has lots of power in those motors. However system complexity is staggering. Could we just ignore system and replaced inverter and gearbox brain? Car will move, but will not provide higher functions

Maybe just ordinary Prius with engine removed and output shaft locked. We can put in 400Vdc battery to use direct voltage and some 25% weakening.

Any other options?
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by jnsaff »

The funny thing is that having researched the used Lexus market a bit it would be much cheaper to get a non-hybrid GS/LS and get a transmission+inverter and hope the transmission mounting will be similar enough.

Aside the transmission+mounts there’s nothing of interest the hybrid has? Battery is garbage and vehicle integration needs to be built from scratch anyway?
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by Kevin Sharpe »

jnsaff wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:37 pm The funny thing is that having researched the used Lexus market a bit it would be much cheaper to get a non-hybrid GS/LS and get a transmission+inverter and hope the transmission mounting will be similar enough.
This GS450H is £500 in the UK and when purchased a few weeks ago was one of several examples available;

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=399&p=4215#p4215
jnsaff wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:37 pmAside the transmission+mounts there’s nothing of interest the hybrid has? Battery is garbage and vehicle integration needs to be built from scratch anyway?
Remember all the parts that are not required can be sold and the income from them subsidises the build.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by Kevin Sharpe »

johu wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:55 pmWhat are you thoughts?
The more electric cars that we can get onto the roads the better. "upcycling" hybrids offers a very low cost and simple solution and is something that we should actively encourage in the open source community :)
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by johu »

Jack Bauer wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:12 pm I think it can certainly be done. Sadly, my favorite automaker has few hybrids and none of those to my liking so I'll just have to plod on doing boring conversions:)
Well your favorite automaker makes plug-in hybrids nowadays :)
arber333 wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:13 pm Last one is perfect since it has lots of power in those motors. However system complexity is staggering. Could we just ignore system and replaced inverter and gearbox brain? Car will move, but will not provide higher functions
Obviously replacing the brain would add more degrees freedom but would also greatly increase the engineering part.
Kevin Sharpe wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:38 pm The more electric cars that we can get onto the roads the better. "upcycling" hybrids offers a very low cost and simple solution and is something that we should actively encourage in the open source community :)
Right. So I think we can establish a hierarchy of what car are seemingly the least work to convert:
1. The ones Arber mentions with electric motors split from gas engine
2. Any Plug-In hybrid
3. Any hybrid
jnsaff wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:37 pm Aside the transmission+mounts there’s nothing of interest the hybrid has? Battery is garbage and vehicle integration needs to be built from scratch anyway?
I'm thinking vehicle integration is mostly a software topic. Except typical engine signals like oil pressure, various temperatures, cam shaft sensors, lambda sonds, air mass, and perhaps air intake pressure. The latter ones will be part of an ECU control loop so you'd need to fake that. Like wastegate/vtg % would need to affect intake pressure. That said maybe the ECU is always split from the VCU so that you can just replace it by a CAN dummy like I did in Touran.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by sfk »

arber333 wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:13 pm Hm... Why not choose cars that have Electric motors split from gas engines.

Mitsubishi Outlander
Volvo V60 Hybrid
Volvo XC90
Typically these Hybrids with electric rear axles have pretty small motors - in the 50Kw or less power range. So they would probably move a vehicle OK but nothing stellar.
-< Mazda Eunos JC Cosmo rotary -> EV conversion w/ Lexus GS450H gear >-
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by Kevin Sharpe »

sfk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:41 am
arber333 wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:13 pm Hm... Why not choose cars that have Electric motors split from gas engines.

Mitsubishi Outlander
Volvo V60 Hybrid
Volvo XC90
Typically these Hybrids with electric rear axles have pretty small motors - in the 50Kw or less power range. So they would probably move a vehicle OK but nothing stellar.
Don't know about the Volvo's but the Outlander has dual motors and is very capable on electric only. If it had a larger towing capacity we'd use my Outlander as the basis for a shop truck conversion.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by arber333 »

Kevin Sharpe wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:24 am
sfk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:41 am
arber333 wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:13 pm Hm... Why not choose cars that have Electric motors split from gas engines.

Mitsubishi Outlander
Volvo V60 Hybrid
Volvo XC90
Typically these Hybrids with electric rear axles have pretty small motors - in the 50Kw or less power range. So they would probably move a vehicle OK but nothing stellar.
Don't know about the Volvo's but the Outlander has dual motors and is very capable on electric only. If it had a larger towing capacity we'd use my Outlander as the basis for a shop truck conversion.
I see V60 has 54kW motor. This should be enough for decent power up to 100km/h driving. I think at that speed you need at least 30kW to sustain speed and 2x to accelerate. I have read somewhere it can be run up to 150km/h.

XC90 i think uses similar 60kW motor on the rear axle.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by tmotion »

I own a v60 phev and van confirm it runs electric up to 130kmph-ish. But getting there is very slow. The rear motor is quite large. I wouldnt be surprised if a tesla sdu fit in there. When you remove the heavy engine in front there is plenty of space for a nice batterypack. Wouldbe my perfect EV. Only problem: these cars are super complex!
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by Hanzzon »

Lexus has about 200hp electric motors in several of its hybrids (more than most other hybrids) and these have been around for 15 years and still going strong.
Very much is already adapted for only electric operation such as Electric AC compressor, electric steering, electric water pump, brake servo Ptc-heater and therefore does not need to be rebuilt.

Toyota's hybrids are similar and have been around even longer in everything from small Yaris hybrids, Prius, Corolla Touring to Camry and Rav4 as well as Highlander hybrids and are equally prepared for electric operation and the components have like Lexus class-leading quality.

Some say that these cars can be driven in all electric mode when the fuel stops and if the fuse for the fuel pump is removed.

Can you get a cheaper electric car in the luxury class than converting a Lexus RX400h or GS450h to electric power with a larger battery pack and a charger or has no one cracked that code??
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by arber333 »

arber333 wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:13 pm Hm... Why not choose cars that have Electric motors split from gas engines.

Mitsubishi Outlander
Volvo V60 Hybrid
Volvo XC90

then there is:
Chevy Volt/Opel Ampera
Last one is perfect since it has lots of power in those motors. However system complexity is staggering. Could we just ignore system and replaced inverter and gearbox brain? Car will move, but will not provide higher functions

Maybe just ordinary Prius with engine removed and output shaft locked. We can put in 400Vdc battery to use direct voltage and some 25% weakening.

Any other options?
I am also adding a VW Passat GTE hybrid to the list.
https://www.drivingelectric.com/volkswa ... erformance
"In electric-only ‘E-mode’, the car can operate at up to 87mph"
Electric motor is 113Hp which is quite enough.
Boot space is humongous for additional battery and one only needs to get to find 12V start signal to turn on contactor on additional battery maybe 2s later than the main one. Of course one would need a diode across contactor to be able to charge it with primary charger.

I would just leave the 1.4L in there and add another battery. Maybe full Leaf pack in the back...
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by SuperV8 »

The trouble is the Passat GTE and the Golf GTE for that matter are both expensive second hand cars £12-15K+ as is the V60 PHEV - so you would need to find one for spares or repairs I imagine.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by tweebs »

Hanzzon wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:53 pm Lexus has about 200hp electric motors in several of its hybrids (more than most other hybrids) and these have been around for 15 years and still going strong.
Very much is already adapted for only electric operation such as Electric AC compressor, electric steering, electric water pump, brake servo Ptc-heater and therefore does not need to be rebuilt.

Toyota's hybrids are similar and have been around even longer in everything from small Yaris hybrids, Prius, Corolla Touring to Camry and Rav4 as well as Highlander hybrids and are equally prepared for electric operation and the components have like Lexus class-leading quality.

Some say that these cars can be driven in all electric mode when the fuel stops and if the fuse for the fuel pump is removed.

Can you get a cheaper electric car in the luxury class than converting a Lexus RX400h or GS450h to electric power with a larger battery pack and a charger or has no one cracked that code??
I don't know about the rest of the world but in Canada in early 2022, there is so little stock of PHEVs that Toyota said there is a multiyear waitlist for the Rav4 Prime. A basic Tesla model 3 runs about $70,000 CAD (no rebates available) BUT there are plenty of used CHEAP (~$10-15K) Toyota and Lexus hybrids. They aren't all supper efficient like a Prius but the Toyota Highlander (Kluger for the Aussies) or the Lexus RX400h or RX450h is a much better choice for my driving needs. Both come with the P310 hybrid transmission and the Q211 rear wheel drive motor. Maybe the G105048010 for the RX400h?

Lexus R400h: MG1+MG2 167HP MGR 60HP 1.9kWh 45kW NiMH battery
Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 50kW rear (67HP)

Webber Q211 tear-down:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuR0cihFAvQ
Webber P410 tear-downhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mc17CoyJs
The P410 is similar to the P310...

I was hoping to find one with a HV traction battery problem and replace it with LiFePO4 cells. Thankfully the OEM NiMH battery modules consist of 1.2V nominal cells which are dived into multiples of 3 much like the Prius batteries. 9 NiMH cells =10.8 V so 3x LiFePO4 3.2v cells =10.8V nominal. There is already a drop in replacement battery (almost) available created by the author of the Dr.Prius app. The 288 V battery pack would require 90 LiFePO4 cells capable of handling the peak 150 A load as measured in the Dr. Prius videos. Jack's batteries appear to replace the same physical size modules already there and add some capacity. I would be tempted to use the spare tire location and the 3rd row seat area and add more battery capacity.
NexPower - Project Lithiumhttps://projectlithium.com/
So many inexpensive Chinese LiFePO4 batteries.
HEADWAY 38120 HP 3.2V 8AH LIFEPO4

Adding a charger shouldn't be too difficult. It would be sweet if we could use the original inverter with a Full bridge rectifier at 120 or 240 VAC and the Open Inverter technology to make use of it as a HV battery charger but I think that would require more than a little bit of a modification...

I'm just learning about the great work down by the people here and still wrapping my head around the potential for a HEV to PHEV or EV using the technology described here. Might just have to buy and old Yota hybrid and play...

It looks like some folks have experimented with removing the ICE and locking crankshaft or welding the planetary gear of the P410 transaxle to utilize MG1 for propulsion along with MG2. If there were a Open Inverter board for the Highlander or RX with control of the MGR (rear), I would be jumping onboard (onboard... tee hee). Full EV might be the next step, but battery cost and range would be an issue for me.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by lsh3rd »

tweebs wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:13 pm It looks like some folks have experimented with removing the ICE and locking crankshaft or welding the planetary gear of the P410 transaxle to utilize MG1 for propulsion along with MG2. If there were a Open Inverter board for the Highlander or RX with control of the MGR (rear), I would be jumping onboard (onboard... tee hee). Full EV might be the next step, but battery cost and range would be an issue for me.
It seems to me that one could take two Gen 3 prius inverters with Damien's dual motor board in one. Inverter #1 could control both MG1 and MG2. Inverter #2 could use the logic board could power MGR and maybe control charging. The two inverters could perhaps be coordinated through a single VCU via the CAN bus. This might make a neat project for a Highlander Hybrid or RX400h donor vehicle, but those are expensive vehicles to start hacking up. I actually own an '04 Highlander gasser I bought new that could be a donor chassis to take components out of a wrecked vehicle. However, the damned thing is so solid, there's no way I'm picking it apart for a project. It's coming up on 304k miles and will probably do 400k easily.

It's getting off topic of the original thread, but I was considering this recently - maybe take an existing AWD platform and swap the Highlander Hybrid P310 and MGR into them - perhaps something smaller and lighter and more fun to drive than the Highlander like an Audi A4 or TT. Those Audis have questionable reliability and mechanically totaled examples are readily available and very inexpensive.

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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by tweebs »

lsh3rd wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:17 pm
tweebs wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:13 pm It looks like some folks have experimented with removing the ICE and locking crankshaft or welding the planetary gear of the P410 transaxle to utilize MG1 for propulsion along with MG2. If there were a Open Inverter board for the Highlander or RX with control of the MGR (rear), I would be jumping onboard (onboard... tee hee). Full EV might be the next step, but battery cost and range would be an issue for me.
It seems to me that one could take two Gen 3 prius inverters with Damien's dual motor board in one. Inverter #1 could control both MG1 and MG2. Inverter #2 could use the logic board could power MGR and maybe control charging. The two inverters could perhaps be coordinated through a single VCU via the CAN bus. This might make a neat project for a Highlander Hybrid or RX400h donor vehicle, but those are expensive vehicles to start hacking up. I actually own an '04 Highlander gasser I bought new that could be a donor chassis to take components out of a wrecked vehicle. However, the damned thing is so solid, there's no way I'm picking it apart for a project. It's coming up on 304k miles and will probably do 400k easily.

It's getting off topic of the original thread, but I was considering this recently - maybe take an existing AWD platform and swap the Highlander Hybrid P310 and MGR into them - perhaps something smaller and lighter and more fun to drive than the Highlander like an Audi A4 or TT. Those Audis have questionable reliability and mechanically totaled examples are readily available and very inexpensive.

Larry
Ha. It's funny you mentioned the Audi A4, I just sold my '04 Audi A4 1.8t Quattro with a blown engine for scrap this week. It was a great car to drive but it had all sort of weird problems before the engine died. Thankfully all the similar Audi's had the same issues so there was a lot of information and parts out there. I only paid ~$2k CAD ~1.5k USD for it with about 100,000 miles. I considered a full EV conversion of course but it's really not economical in any way as you end up gutting everything, and essentially only using the body. I don't think there was room for a MGR in the rear anyways, also the German engineering choices were odd and annoying. I won't be buying another German vehicle.

Although the Toyota and Lexus ICE only models are known for their quality, reliability, and long life, their hybrid counterparts have a reputation for being complex, expensive to repair and difficult to work on for the all but the most skilled Toyota trained mechanics. I can see their point, a break job looks silly, issues with the MGs/transmission requires that the engines are dropped, and the traction batteries don't last forever and are expensive to replace. Hopefully that will translate to a cheap donner vehicle I can play with. From what I can tell there is a lot of potential in these hybrids but not a lot of information.

The engineering and reverse engineering work done here is incredible, I just don't want to drive a Prius but I may have to buy one to experiment with the drive train and OI projects.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by lsh3rd »

tweebs wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:25 pm Ha. It's funny you mentioned the Audi A4, I just sold my '04 Audi A4 1.8t Quattro with a blown engine for scrap this week. It was a great car to drive but it had all sort of weird problems before the engine died. Thankfully all the similar Audi's had the same issues so there was a lot of information and
...
The engineering and reverse engineering work done here is incredible, I just don't want to drive a Prius but I may have to buy one to experiment with the drive train and OI projects.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'd certainly want to research the problem areas the Audis have outside their drivetrains. One other option for them is to get a manual transmission and do a single large motor through that and leverage the existing AWD system. Obviously, I've done no measuring here - I'm unsure if the MGR dimensions - that'd be great info for someone to add to the wiki. (I've stubbed out pages for detailing other Toyota transmission/motors but lots of details were left blank.)

As far as the Toyota hybrids, I'm kind of leaning against them more or less for the reason of being kind of boring. I really don't want another Highlander - my current one is a fantastic vehicle, but completely uninspiring to drive. I've considered a 2nd gen Prius for my daughter to drive and when she gets tired of it (or after college graduation), taking it back to play with. I'm mostly avoiding the 3rd gen due to head gasket issues, but on the other hand maybe the gen 3 Prius is the sweet spot on a hybrid to EV conversion. Perhaps, buy, then drive it until the head gasket pops, then convert it, but then I'd be stuck driving it. (I'm unsure of the market value of such a conversion)

Of course my luck with Toyota products has been almost too good... I get really tired of them, but they aren't worth selling due to diminished value and then they never stop running, so I hang onto them forever. With my great luck, I'd get a Prius and it'd never break.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by tweebs »

Update: I went out and bought me the cheapest, unloved, high mileage (170,000 miles) beat-up Gen 1 (2006 Highlander) available. The worst part is the dude that sold it, had it 'detailed' and it now reeks of carpet cleaning fragrance. I was really hoping for a Gen2 (2008-2009) but for a car I may end up destroying, this fit the bill. Everything drive train related works, much of the accessories don't, and I'm pretty sure there the door is glued together with silicone and it's airbags are missing. This will serve it's purpose as my test bench.

I've spent days reading threads going back to 2019, and tried to pickup how the GX450h and Prius Gen3 inverters have been reversed engineered (thankfully open sourced this time), and the how subsequent controllers were developed. I'm now up to the Zombie VCU which seems like the future in Toyota inverter controllers.

There is so much more to do and a growing list of questions and problems that I hope there are answers and solutions to. Otherwise, I will take what I learn and share my experiences with the hive mind.
Questions:
1. Determine what speed/power/efficiencies are possible with modified P310 transaxle.
a. Unlike the popular GX 'gearbox' there isn't a shiftable gear in the P310. I'm not sure how that will limit the available output over typical vehicle speeds.
b. Locking the P310 input to use MG1 for wheel drive possible? I haven't been able to find the gear ratios beyond trying to read a yellow label from a freezed frame in a Webber state video. Locking the input, will drive MG1 to wheel speed at a fixed ratio, like MG2. Not sure how that will limit anything. It might be possible to lock the P310 input my locking the outside of the clutch to a bracket mounted on the bottom of the transaxle housing, at least temporarily. I'm lazy and I don't want to pull the engine out quite yet. This would allow me to put the car on a lift (or cinder blocks) and experiment.
c. How does the oil pump circuit function? What what I can see there is both a oil pump run by ICE output and external oil pump. Not sure if it's cooled.
d. Additional cooling needed.
2. Determine what is required to reused an unmodified Highlander inverter (partial or full). MG1, MG2, MGR, DC/DC, Boost Converter, AC, etc
a. Can the Highlander inverter 3 MGs be controlled/reported via sync serial (MTH HTM CLK REQ)? It sounds like the frames are a different length than the other inverters, a Rav4 inverter was mentioned but I don't know if the data was mapped. Acquire hardware for spying on MTH HTM.
b. Are the other functions of the inverter controllable/useable? Are they independent of external control? Do they need to be powered from the Boost Converter?
c. What is the power rating of the Boost Converter? It may be different than the GX450h because it would also drive MGR, in addition to similar size MG2. It was never intended to power MG1+MG2+MGR so a direct battery connection to the DC bus will be needed to get full power.
d. Additional cooling for Inverter power electronics.
3. Additional/Replacement batteries and external charging. Location(s), Voltages, Capacities. Not on the top of my priorities, unless it seems impractical to convert to EV in which case they may be another HEV to PHEV project. With the ICE and gas removed there would be more room, but

Tasks:
1. Capture MTH HTM data for Highlander Inverter.
a. Acquire hardware to capture Sync Serial. I may open another thread for this topic as this should apply to any toyota/lexus inverter which communicates via sync serial. It's currently unclear to me if the VCUs including the Zombie VCU could/should used for this considering they have the hardware or if I should pickup a Due or maybe EVTVDue based board and added a quad CAN controller much like xp766 did. hilux_hx seems to have a pricey looking logic analyzer for this task? Amazingly, all the important drivetrain wiring comes back to the Hybrid ECU located behind the glovebox, I don't even need a screw drive to hack into this car. I've purchased a salvaged OEM Hyrbid ECU with including wiring harness which I can use to make a breakout\intercept cable, this way the original parts are left in tack for my experimenting.
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=205
b. Analyze frames. Compare to other inverters.
c. Control Highlander Inverter over Sync Serial, preferably with modified Open Inverter VCU.
d. Profit... by that I mean start a new expensive hobby which consumes all my free time.
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Re: Converting a hybrid to all-electric

Post by johu »

Nice, sounding good.
I'd assume the boost converter would need to be bypassed. Probably "easiest" to short it out completely rather than changing the stock DC wiring? That said I remember the Prius DC wiring was pretty flimsy. 6mm² or so.
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