Prius gen 2 A/C control

[miniman82]

Good day all,

Looking for information on the gen 2 Prius AC inverter, I understand most here are probably only concerned about traction motors but I’d like to build a thermal storage system which incorporates the gen 2 hardware so I’m probing for information.

Thanks!

Nick

[ZooKeeper]

There is a 3ph AC output from the Inverter/converter that powers the AC compressor. The command and control comes from the hybrid ECU connectors H15 & H16. The request signals appear to be CAN and that is where my understanding stops.

[arber333]

Good day all,

Looking for information on the gen 2 Prius AC inverter, I understand most here are probably only concerned about traction motors but I’d like to build a thermal storage system which incorporates the gen 2 hardware so I’m probing for information.

Thanks!

Nick

I am not sure how your idea might work, but i am actively working on making my Prius compressor working in my Pug.
I am also working on a small Lebowski type power section to universaly connect AC compressors and run them independently from big traction inverter.
Some relevant threads for more data:
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... or.140346/
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... st-1056157

I wanted to create my own thread for this to have everything under one roof. May i hijack yours now that it is here?

[johu]

Do you think you could hijack the Prius A/C inverter and run it with a Lebowski? Should be enough space for a modboard.

[arber333]

Do you think you could hijack the Prius A/C inverter and run it with a Lebowski? Should be enough space for a modboard.

Hm... We can do it as long as we keep the brain at 5V. Do you have a schematic?
That means current sensors have to be on a 5V interface +/-2.5V.
This is absolute requirement because everything depends on accurate current readings. I seem to remember gen3 uses some differential sensors. It is the reason why i didnt go for the Prius gen3 brain raplacement directly.
Is gen2 any different in that regard?

In reality we need 3x 5V current sensors for best results. Maybe we could do with 2x but really...!
Also PWM outputs need to be on the 5V cmos level.
Voltage calibration is additional and in gen3 i saw we could already use this signal directly.
Rest of inputs and outputs are easily adapted.

Best thing would be to have Prius gen2 here. I have gen3 here and i havent even tried to run it.

[arber333]

Actually my idea of making Prius AC compressor inverter was exactly because there is so much variation between power stages i want to make something simple that would also work in a 200Vdc brushed DC motor car.

I intend to use 25A IPM module here. https://si.farnell.com/rohm/bm63967s-va ... =30a%20ipm
I am at the drawing board stage, but this can quickly grow into a prototype phase. By now i have replaced Prius 3phase connector with my Volt inverter 3phase connector and i still have some cables left to use for interface. This should go quick.

[ZooKeeper]

The Prius Gen2 is a 3ph compressor controlled & powered by the Inverter. The Prius Gen3+ parts are not.

[arber333]

The Prius Gen2 is a 3ph compressor controlled & powered by the Inverter. The Prius Gen3+ parts are not.

I dont care , Lebowski could run compressor on MG1 stage. Hm... maybe we could replace the current sensors and have a go!
I have succesfully ran Leaf AC compressor. I am sure others could be persuaded also.
The only problem i see there is how to seal the internal 3phase connection.
This is why i am more inclined to make a small standard inverter and fit it wherever it could go.

[ZooKeeper]

Agreed, the the G2 inverter can power 3ph motors from three circuits: MG1, MG2 & AC. What I did not explain completely is that this is not an option with the Gen3 & similar (RAV, Camry, Highlander, etc) inverters or compressors.

In fact, as far as I know, only the 1998-2009 PRII use the 3ph AC compressor with inverter integrated power stage.

[arber333]

Agreed, the the G2 inverter can power 3ph motors from three circuits: MG1, MG2 & AC. What I did not explain completely is that this is not an option with the Gen3 & similar (RAV, Camry, Highlander, etc) inverters or compressors.

In fact, as far as I know, only the 1998-2009 PRII use the 3ph AC compressor with inverter integrated power stage.

Like i said, if you connect to motor 3phase connector it doesnt care. It just runs. Problem is sealing that connection against oil and pressure. Also those wires are measly thin. I guess because distance from inverter to motor is so short.

I agree for diy gen2 compressor is the best.

[miniman82]

I am not sure how your idea might work, but i am actively working on making my Prius compressor working in my Pug.

Thank you for the videos, at least I know I can run the compressor from MG1 or 2 inverter if I can’t get the A/C one to work.

My understanding is that I would need a working vehicle and a CAN capture device in order to figure out which command actually tells it to turn on and run, and I have neither access to a Prius or the necessary hardware to capture the CAN commands. I did do some digging into the A/C inverter itself, and it looks like it contains a small RISC based microprocessor and a power section. I’m unsure whether the processor is controlling the output stage directly, or if there is a control device between them. I need to do more chip I.D. to see what’s actually on the board.

The main idea for the complete system is:

Gen 2 A/C components
Stock evaporator replaced by R134 to water exchangers
Aftermarket adjustable expansion valve
Water cooled condenser coupled to earth loop (geothermal)

These components form an very efficient system which will remove heat from a pair of 50gal glycol tanks during the night, time shifting my conditioned air loads so I’m not consuming so much electricity during the daytime to cool my buildings. Battery will be maintained by mains derived supply at night, and I’m also contemplating using a PV source to offset additional power during the day, should demand be great enough to deplete the thermal batteries to the point where the compressor would be needed. I think this would be a good task for the boost converter, but I’m getting ahead of myself a little.

I can handle the refrigerant related tasks and mechanical conversion of the system, which will be straightforward A/C work. It’s the digital stuff I’d need help with.

Sound fun?

[arber333]

I am not sure how your idea might work, but i am actively working on making my Prius compressor working in my Pug.

Thank you for the videos, at least I know I can run the compressor from MG1 or 2 inverter if I can’t get the A/C one to work.

My understanding is that I would need a working vehicle and a CAN capture device in order to figure out which command actually tells it to turn on and run, and I have neither access to a Prius or the necessary hardware to capture the CAN commands. I did do some digging into the A/C inverter itself, and it looks like it contains a small RISC based microprocessor and a power section. I’m unsure whether the processor is controlling the output stage directly, or if there is a control device between them. I need to do more chip I.D. to see what’s actually on the board.

The main idea for the complete system is:

Gen 2 A/C components
Stock evaporator replaced by R134 to water exchangers
Aftermarket adjustable expansion valve
Water cooled condenser coupled to earth loop (geothermal)

These components form an very efficient system which will remove heat from a pair of 50gal glycol tanks during the night, time shifting my conditioned air loads so I’m not consuming so much electricity during the daytime to cool my buildings. Battery will be maintained by mains derived supply at night, and I’m also contemplating using a PV source to offset additional power during the day, should demand be great enough to deplete the thermal batteries to the point where the compressor would be needed. I think this would be a good task for the boost converter, but I’m getting ahead of myself a little.

I can handle the refrigerant related tasks and mechanical conversion of the system, which will be straightforward A/C work. It’s the digital stuff I’d need help with.

Sound fun?

Really cool! I can make a small inverter board and test it with Lebowski board. No need for complete Prius inverrter unless you already have it.
Like i said i want to custom made the inverter so everyone will be able to use gen2 compressor without using Prius inverter.
Should be a small enough unit. I hope i can keep EMI low enough to make it usefull even at 360Vdc.

I think with using MG1 you would have to replace current sensors since they are made to run 250A motor they are too coarse to run small 2kW compressor. I would replace them with 3x Allegro sensors which work at 5V.
https://si.farnell.com/allegro-microsys ... dp/1791392

That would all be integrated onboard including the phase cable clamps/bolts.
Idea is to cut off orange connector, take off isolation and bolt the cables on. Then also connect shield and you are good to go.

[miniman82]

No need for a complete power stage, if I’m going to go that route I have an IPM from a Civic hybrid that I can use, I’d just need a 3-phase controller for it.

[arber333]

No need for a complete power stage, if I’m going to go that route I have an IPM from a Civic hybrid that I can use, I’d just need a 3-phase controller for it.

Even better. I remember Tomdb made some effort to spin Remy motor with lebowski brain. I think his design is still on his github.
Yes I think this is viable. You will need to test current sensors though. If they are too coarse you will need finer resolution.

[miniman82]

Sensors shouldn’t be a problem, as long as I can start and stop the compressor on command it’s going to work. Originally I wanted speed control as well, but I don’t think I need that feature anyway. Removing heat from those tanks means the system will likely be running at full capacity for at least a few hours, so speed control isn’t a design priority so much as getting it pumping in the first place. I suppose I can always revisit it later if I need to.

Can you suggest a suitable controller for the Mitsubishi IPM?

[arber333]

Sensors shouldn’t be a problem, as long as I can start and stop the compressor on command it’s going to work. Originally I wanted speed control as well, but I don’t think I need that feature anyway. Removing heat from those tanks means the system will likely be running at full capacity for at least a few hours, so speed control isn’t a design priority so much as getting it pumping in the first place. I suppose I can always revisit it later if I need to.

Can you suggest a suitable controller for the Mitsubishi IPM?

Hm, Lebowski controller has limited acceleration and RPM. You set it inside interface.
I definitely recommend Lebowski inverter for sensorless motor run.

PM me or post here which inverter you have. I have here outlander rear inverter.

[miniman82]

I don’t have it in front of me, but if memory serves it’s the Mitsu PM300CJA060. Looks like the attached pic. I found a PDF from Mitsu outlining their IPM line, and while this one isn’t specifically called out if you go by the part numbers it should be a 600v/300A unit.

https://www.mitsubishielectric.com/semi ... mos6_0.pdf

I’ve done some playing around with both the Prius inverters and the Mitsu one, I believe that I discovered the Mitsu inputs work opposite the Prius one. For example if the Prius inverter expects a phase input pulled low, the Mitsu one wants logic high to enable. Hopefully that’s not an issue in hardware.

[SciroccoEV]

Off the shelf single to three phase VFD would probably work very nicely.

[miniman82]

I already have these parts here though, and I enjoy the challenge of putting it all together. The controller will likely be a small cost to me, vs buying a complete VFD off the shelf.

[arber333]

I don’t have it in front of me, but if memory serves it’s the Mitsu PM300CJA060. Looks like the attached pic. I found a PDF from Mitsu outlining their IPM line, and while this one isn’t specifically called out if you go by the part numbers it should be a 600v/300A unit.

https://www.mitsubishielectric.com/semi ... mos6_0.pdf

I’ve done some playing around with both the Prius inverters and the Mitsu one, I believe that I discovered the Mitsu inputs work opposite the Prius one. For example if the Prius inverter expects a phase input pulled low, the Mitsu one wants logic high to enable. Hopefully that’s not an issue in hardware.

Oh, it is not a complete inverter, but a IPM module.
No dspic30 has cmos outputs. It can drive anything 5V level. Maybe 300A is a bit overkill. But is a nice unit to learn IGBT basics.
Do you have datasheet or application instruction. You will need the connector pinout.

[miniman82]

Read through the link I posted, it has a lot of application notes in it.

Oh it’s total overkill for an 1800w A/C compressor, but I already have it so I may as well use it. I don’t recall if logic signals are enough to drive it, I just remember being able to probe the various pins on the connector and getting the phase outputs to change state. I think I wrote down whether it was positive or ground application that caused state changes, I’ll have to look through my binder of notes.