330e Hybrid Swap

andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

Hello all,

I'm looking for some input and to find out if I'm crazy or not.

I would like to purchase a salvage 330e or other BMW PHEV for the purpose of making a standalone hybrid that could be placed behind an ls1 or other ubiquitous engine. My thought is that the engine and the motor would be controlled independently and don't need to know that the other exists. This would be very similar to the Shadow Drive system offered by Vonnen for Porsche cars with the added benefit of a modern 8 speed transmission.

The goal would be to install into a 50s or 60s large American car.

Outside of the donor car, what would be needed to at least run the motor?

Thank you for your help.
golfdubcrazy
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by golfdubcrazy »

Hi,

Making a hybrid is one hell of an annoying challenge. you could setup the engine as an independent part and the motor control as an independent part but will have to make a module that would operate as a transition between the two. that module would also need to send control signals to the gearbox to select and change gears.

you would be looking at a
  • standalone ecu ideally with DBW
  • motor inverter
  • gearbox controller
  • module to transation between the two units
a setup like the i8 where the motor is fully independent of the engine and gearbox might be simpler but recharging the battery would be harder to setup.

hope that helps
arber333
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 223 times
Contact:

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by arber333 »

andrewjenkins34 wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:32 pm Hello all,

I'm looking for some input and to find out if I'm crazy or not.

I would like to purchase a salvage 330e or other BMW PHEV for the purpose of making a standalone hybrid that could be placed behind an ls1 or other ubiquitous engine. My thought is that the engine and the motor would be controlled independently and don't need to know that the other exists. This would be very similar to the Shadow Drive system offered by Vonnen for Porsche cars with the added benefit of a modern 8 speed transmission.

The goal would be to install into a 50s or 60s large American car.

Outside of the donor car, what would be needed to at least run the motor?

Thank you for your help.
Hah! What you need is to think in reverse. Dont try to convert the car to EV! Try to add an E motor to the unpowered rear/front axle.
Ground will take care of your drive/regen connection between axles.
I suggest Outlander rear motor and inverter with CAN bus controler which will receive signal from throttle pedal.
I dont know where you will put the battery but those cars were big! You could take a FWD car and put Outlander rear axle in it :).
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

golfdubcrazy wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:46 pm Hi,

Making a hybrid is one hell of an annoying challenge. you could setup the engine as an independent part and the motor control as an independent part but will have to make a module that would operate as a transition between the two. that module would also need to send control signals to the gearbox to select and change gears.

you would be looking at a
  • standalone ecu ideally with DBW
  • motor inverter
  • gearbox controller
  • module to transation between the two units
a setup like the i8 where the motor is fully independent of the engine and gearbox might be simpler but recharging the battery would be harder to setup.

hope that helps
Thanks for the input, that's pretty much what I had in mind but I'm curious what you were talking about as far as a transition between the two. I'm an extremely enthusiastic novice in the world of EVs but I'm a fast learner. No stranger to cars though, just trying to learn as much as I can before spending money on a lost cause. Standalone engine management is relatively easy and there is a company that makes a controller for the 8hp, seems like the biggest hurdle would be an inverter to run the motor.

I imagine the oem inverter from the 330e has a say in decoupling the engine from the transmission but I haven't been able to find anyone who knows.

I realize it's a complicated setup and most people I've talked to seem to think it's overly complicated but hear me out...

There's less hardware that needs to be fitted to a vehicle. Don't have to mess with systems like brakes, power steering, a/c, or heating. There's no "range anxiety". You get to keep whatever engine you like (for those of us that still love to hear the engine). It's a power adder. You get a fantastic 8 speed gearbox. And there's the added benefit of electric only drive, even for a short while depending on batteries.
User avatar
celeron55
Posts: 774
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by celeron55 »

As far as I know OEM inverters tend to be simply torque controlled. They don't have any extra functionality, they just get a torque command and will do their best to make it happen at the motor. A VCU commands the inverter, the ICE and the transmission.
golfdubcrazy
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by golfdubcrazy »

I cant speak fully for the BMW side as i work more on VW/Audi (below an example of audi hybrid 8sepeed gearbox)
hybrid gearbox.jpg
when it comes to a hybrid manufactures have gone many different methods of control. some making the engine ecu decide when the transition happens some leaving the motor inverter. lots of test have been run on the engine and motor to make sure the swap between the two are as smooth as possible.

the main thing is manufactures don't like sharing with us there CAN Bus data. meaning we have to reverse engineer all the signals and find out what they mean and which ones control components.

if you are using the bmw gearbox, typically the gearbox control unit is built into the gearbox. you would need to learn that CAN BUS signals are transmitted to/from the gearbox for it to select gears and transition between engine and electric motor. this is getting done on the BMW thread BMW ZF GA8P75HZ Gearbox Hacking.

The transition device (can be STM32, Arduino, Rpi, ect) connects before the ECU, inverter and gearbox would have to take in the pedal input and essentially match the engine output to the motor output before you start actuating clutch's to swap modes. sounds simple really isn't.

As for less hardware unfortunately. you still would have to remove the mechanical power steering pump as that would stop working as soon as the engine is switched off. electric power steering and vacuum pump would need to be fitted. A/C you could have mechanical or electrical as its not always needed.
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

Thanks again for the info.
Is this the kind of project the Zombieverter VCU could handle?
Instead of worrying about transition while driving, would it be easier to just have the different modes selectable from stop?

Thanks for pointing out the need for electric pumps while in ev mode, not sure what I was thinking.
kieran
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by kieran »

Hi,

I'm in the middle of this right now with a GA8P75HZ from a BMW 330E, any info on the motor is scarce and ZF are tight lipped, we are using the original BMW battery pack, Standalone engine management, separate TCU and a VCU to control the inverter and BMS.......LOTS of CANBUS, main issues so far are getting a "torque model" style output from the ICU ECU to feed the VCU and getting any information about this damn motor, I'd like to run a PM100DX for ease of integration with the VCU but i'm open to suggestions if anyone has any?

Thanks,

Kieran
User avatar
Jack Bauer
Posts: 3563
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:24 pm
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 87 times
Contact:

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by Jack Bauer »

Are you sharing the information needed to run the oem parts as open source?
I'm going to need a hacksaw
kieran
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by kieran »

Sorry I didn't make that very clear, Not looking to run too much of the OEM electronics, battery pack will be broken down into its 5 individual modules and probably managed with an orion bms and valeo charger, TCU is an aftermarket controller, still up in the air on which inverter to use(We don't have the OEM unit) I was looking to use a Cascadia PM100DX but they aren't being very helpful in identifying if they can work with this motor. Anything useful I might know I'm happy to share though.
Markos
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:06 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by Markos »

Would it be possible to mate the GS450H (or GS300H) transmission to e.g. an LS1 engine? For example with the zombieverter for the transmission and a Holley LS EFI system (or something like that) for the LS1 engine? Or even better (/cheaper), the zombieverter also for communicating with the engine? (zombieverter communicating with the stock engine ECU)
I can imagine that this would make things simpler instead of using a standalone hybrid, but it might also make things more difficult. Hard to tell for me as I'm also new to all of this.
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

I just ordered a Zombieverter yesterday so I'm looking forward to whenever that gets here.

On another thread about this gearbox, someone suggested it was a Remy motor. I haven't found a gearbox at a price I like yet so I can't speak to that but I did find this information from Neweagle if it's an HVH250:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... luR36RI5FH

I found a gen 3 prius inverter at a great price and planned on using that with the Zombieverter and original 330e battery pack. It looks like the inverter will still need to be modified to work with the higher voltage?

Simpbms appears to be the best option for bms and I'm undecided on a charger at this point. Still somewhat planning the project.

I also checked with the maker of the TCU and it looks like we'll be able to use their clutch control feature to engage and disengage the ice.
kieran
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by kieran »

Unfortunately I don't think it is a Remy unit, If you'd like some more photos let me know, Would I be way off in assuming 8 Pole pairs and IPM? The actual ins and outs of motor specifics are very new to me.
IMG_1566.jpg
IMG_1567.jpg
User avatar
Bigpie
Posts: 1585
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:11 pm
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 299 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by Bigpie »

Pretty sure with the Zombie board, you can't mix and match motors and inverters. With a Prius inverter you need a Prius motor.
VW Beetle 2003
Outlander front generator
Prius Gen 3 inverter (EVBMW logic board)
Outlander charger
3x Golf GTE batteries
Chademo Charging
Outlander water heater
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

Would it work with the logic board replaced to run a different motor or would I need the BMW inverter? I recognize I'm in over my head but I want to learn to swim and sometimes you've just got to jump into the deep end. Sorry, that's enough swimming analogies.
User avatar
Bigpie
Posts: 1585
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:11 pm
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 299 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by Bigpie »

if you replace the logic board you can, I'm running a Gen 3 Prius inverter with an Outlander motor, but with a replacement logic board. If you want easy to get going the Zombie is the way, but with the draw back of having to have a motor inverter pair. If you want full control or to mix and match, a replacement logic board if required, but you'll need to tune the setup etc.

For my next project, it'll be the zombie all the way.
VW Beetle 2003
Outlander front generator
Prius Gen 3 inverter (EVBMW logic board)
Outlander charger
3x Golf GTE batteries
Chademo Charging
Outlander water heater
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

Thanks for the update. From all I've been reading and learning, it looks like the prius inverter is a pretty robust unit and I got mine for like $50.

Since I've already ordered the Zombieverter, would it make sense to order the logic board as well? They should work together and make it easier to control multiple inputs and outputs since the Zombieverter is externally mounted correct ?
User avatar
Bigpie
Posts: 1585
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:11 pm
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 299 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by Bigpie »

Not 100% sure, maybe the zombie will support generic can controlled inverters and you'd just match up the ids. I suppose you could use the zombie for controlling heater, chargers, car gauges etc.

*Edit* Zombie does support that setup
Screenshot 2021-09-23 at 9.32.55 am.png
VW Beetle 2003
Outlander front generator
Prius Gen 3 inverter (EVBMW logic board)
Outlander charger
3x Golf GTE batteries
Chademo Charging
Outlander water heater
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

Excellent!
kieran
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by kieran »

Is anyone willing to share a bit of knowledge about what would need to be found out about this motor to find a suitable inverter? Cascadia have come back to me with a list of

Is the motor SPM or IPM? Looks like its IPM from what I can Gather?

How many pole pairs? Out of my depth Rotor has 2 Rows of 16 poles? And stator has 24 slots?

How many pole pairs is the resolver? 28 Poles/Slots? (My electric motor terminology is terrible) with 8 peaks on the encoder rotor? This is a SIN/COS encoder but I don't know the standard exciter voltage.

What is the peak and continuous current rating? No Idea....I believe it's an 80KW peak output motor

What is the battery voltage? OEM 5 module BMW pack has a nominal voltage of 293V, a working range of 224-332V and 26Ah capacity according to BMW data

any help would be much appreciated!
kieran
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by kieran »

Found this interesting little snippet from BMW PHEV GEN4 document, Battery voltage has increased to 354.2V Nominal, 269-403V range
Attachments
GEN4PHEV.png
User avatar
Jack Bauer
Posts: 3563
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:24 pm
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 87 times
Contact:

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by Jack Bauer »

If you want to get an idea of what it takes to spin up an unknown motor I'd suggest starting here :
I'm going to need a hacksaw
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

Well, here goes nothing...
Attachments
20211006_085824.jpg
20211006_120927.jpg
kieran
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by kieran »

I have mine spinning with Johannes' board and a Prius inverter now, only at 100V at the moment but looking to get the main pack connected soon
andrewjenkins34
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:48 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 330e Hybrid Swap

Post by andrewjenkins34 »

Great news. Have you installed the trans controller? I assume you're using htg?
I'm still waiting on my zombieverter but I'd love to know how you have yours set up.
Post Reply