[DRIVING] Renault Clio Electrique -97

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arber333
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by arber333 »

johu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:43 am It is interesting to see that field weakening, apparently, can't maintain reasonable torque just by itself.
I can see with ACIM motors that using FW is never a problem. I guess even 100% FW is possible.
PMSM though i can see even more than 25% FW can be a problem. I guess because of magnet excitation and winding current blanketing torque drops off faster.
With Emrax motor for example because of many pole count FW stability is difficult at more than 5000rpm.
Maybe this was the reason Toyota went for boost system rather than FW up to drive speed. Maybe they made analysis that yes 30kW is enough for normal speed and if you use FW you may get even more losses at the same torque/speed.

I am rather interested in Lexus drive and its FW capability. This would be a worthy test bed to try efficiency of both ways to get to high RPM.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

jap wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:54 am Super exciting to follow your progress, congrats! What kind of top speed can one expect with your tire size and 300ish V?
This is a very speculative answer. It will depend on what you mean by top speed? On a flat road where you can accelerate forever I think the top speed can be fairly high. One limiting factor is the motors max speed which, if I remember correctly, is 14000rpm. That would correspond to ~200km/h. However the torque the motor can produce must be able to equal the forces from aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance and I have no guess on this. The aero drag correlates to the square of the speed so it grows fast.

For my own purposes I want to reach 90km/h with an acceleration that lets me keep up with traffic. With lower battery voltages I was just not able to get reasonable acceleration. With 300V it felt ok.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

johu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:43 am It is interesting to see that field weakening, apparently, can't maintain reasonable torque just by itself.
I think the MGR is designed for high voltages (~300V) and so it is no suprise the running it on less than half of that produces not so much torque.
Does a ACIM perform differently in FW?
For the PMSM the torque drops quite fast when entering FW with lower voltages. With higher voltages its a bit smoother transition.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

arber333 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:12 am
johu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:43 am It is interesting to see that field weakening, apparently, can't maintain reasonable torque just by itself.
I can see with ACIM motors that using FW is never a problem. I guess even 100% FW is possible.
PMSM though i can see even more than 25% FW can be a problem. I guess because of magnet excitation and winding current blanketing torque drops off faster.
With Emrax motor for example because of many pole count FW stability is difficult at more than 5000rpm.
Maybe this was the reason Toyota went for boost system rather than FW up to drive speed. Maybe they made analysis that yes 30kW is enough for normal speed and if you use FW you may get even more losses at the same torque/speed.

I am rather interested in Lexus drive and its FW capability. This would be a worthy test bed to try efficiency of both ways to get to high RPM.
My theory:
The Toyota/Lexus drivetrain is not a battery EV drivetrain but a Hybrid system that "can" be used as a battery vehicle for short distances but really isn't designed for it.
When driving a Toyota Hybrid at normal speeds/accelerations the ICE is running which allows MG1 to produce a higher voltage that then MG2 can put to good use propelling the car together with some more power added directly by the ICE. The buck/boost is mostly there to allow for battery charging while driving and also provide short bursts of power during acceleration, not to power the car.
So even though the battery voltages is fairly low the motors are designed for high voltages.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

My plan is to switch to a Prius inverter and try to run as high voltage as possible, either 105S LiFePO4 or 92-96S Li-ion.
My goal is to reach as high efficiency as possible so running via the buck/boost is not an option for more then testing.

If using battery cells from a PHEV vehicle it might be possible to reduce the weight by another 50kg and still maintaining the same energy storage. This is my preffered option.
Reconfiguring my current cells is a lot of work and will cost less but there are no gains in wheight saving.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by Jack Bauer »

What I can tell you is the Lexus GS450h loves 360v so I'm going to feed it with 380v soon. Also, video on the way later today that might prove interesting:)
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

Jack Bauer wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:56 pm What I can tell you is the Lexus GS450h loves 360v so I'm going to feed it with 380v soon. Also, video on the way later today that might prove interesting:)
I have been curious about this for quite some time and now I know. Excellent video, much appreciated!
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

I'm having a hard time deciding how many cells in series I can safely run with the Prius inverter when feeding it into the battery side.
The caps in the DC/DC is rated 400V and it is normaly good to have some margin. I also want to use the buck/boost for charging which might produce ripple when used. On the other hand I want to runs as high voltage as possible to get the most out of the motor.
84S fells to me like a safe choise, 353V fully charged (4,2V/cell) and 315V nominal (3,75V/cell).
88S might be ok but less margin with 370/330V.
92S might be pushing it with 386/345V.
96S seem hazardous with 403/360V but should give good power... :)
Am I being to chicken about it? Feel free to input your thougths and/or experience.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by arber333 »

bexander wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:21 pm I'm having a hard time deciding how many cells in series I can safely run with the Prius inverter when feeding it into the battery side.
The caps in the DC/DC is rated 400V and it is normaly good to have some margin. I also want to use the buck/boost for charging which might produce ripple when used. On the other hand I want to runs as high voltage as possible to get the most out of the motor.
84S fells to me like a safe choise, 353V fully charged (4,2V/cell) and 315V nominal (3,75V/cell).
88S might be ok but less margin with 370/330V.
92S might be pushing it with 386/345V.
96S seem hazardous with 403/360V but should give good power... :)
Am I being to chicken about it? Feel free to input your thougths and/or experience.
Like i said before DCDC in gen3 inverter wont support anything above 310Vdc. There is a way to modify/hack it, but i am not there yet :).
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

arber333 wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:20 pm
bexander wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:21 pm I'm having a hard time deciding how many cells in series I can safely run with the Prius inverter when feeding it into the battery side.
The caps in the DC/DC is rated 400V and it is normaly good to have some margin. I also want to use the buck/boost for charging which might produce ripple when used. On the other hand I want to runs as high voltage as possible to get the most out of the motor.
84S fells to me like a safe choise, 353V fully charged (4,2V/cell) and 315V nominal (3,75V/cell).
88S might be ok but less margin with 370/330V.
92S might be pushing it with 386/345V.
96S seem hazardous with 403/360V but should give good power... :)
Am I being to chicken about it? Feel free to input your thougths and/or experience.
Like i said before DCDC in gen3 inverter wont support anything above 310Vdc. There is a way to modify/hack it, but i am not there yet :).
To my understanding, as per Damiens video, one needs to change 2x4pc of resistors to run it at higher voltages but are there more mods required?
After the resistor mod the limiting factor should be the 400V capacitors which did seem difficult to replace, also according to Damiens video.

I plan to disassemble my Prius inverter today (arrived yesterday :) ) and have a look at it. I will also check if it's possible to run the Yaris logic board in the Prius inverter.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

It seem to be possible to fit a Yaris board in a Prius inverter, using some adaptors to elongate the PCB to reach the mounting points. Will post pictures when the install is complete.

The battery bus main capacitor in the Prius inverter is specified for 470V so there are some margin left.
Tomorrow I will have a look at the DC/DC side of the inverter.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

Here is a picture of how I made the Yaris logic board fit in a Prius Gen3 inverter.
IMG_1477_scale.JPG
I have decided to use a battery pack from a Kia Niro PHEV so will end up with 96S @ 3,75V for a total of 360V with a capacity of 24,7Ah and a total energy of 8,9kWh. This is similar to what I'm currently are running in terms of energy but the weight will be approximately half, so a weight saving of about 50kg.
I will have to sort a BMS. The OEM slave boards are included with the pack so I will have to wait and see what can be done there. Otherwise I need to expand my current BMS to handle 96S or, as a last resort, Johannes BMS.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

Finally some progress to report.
Prius inverter installed in a more final position.
IMG_1491_scale.JPG
This is how the battery box used to look.
IMG_1479_scale.JPG
Battery box as of now.
IMG_1489_scale.JPG
This is whats intended to go in the box. Battery from a Kia Niro PHEV (same drivetrain as Hyundai Kona PHEV).
IMG_1488_scale.JPG
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

I will try and post specific info on the BMS in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1179

My intention, as of now, is to try and use the slave boards together with a home built master board.
Will start by reading up on the MAX17823BG chip used in the slaves and hopefully understand how the communication is done.
Then try to decide whats needed as master controller. Would be good if I can get away with a Atmega328p.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

Some updates.
I have assembled the inverter for what I hope is the final time.
The mods I have in place are to be able to fit the Ampseal connector by using the original connector cover.
IMG_1511_scale.JPG
IMG_1513_scale.JPG
IMG_1517_scale.JPG
I have also added a contactor to be able to short the buck/boost while driving but still be able to use buck/boost for charging.
IMG_1515_scale.JPG
IMG_1521_scale.JPG
Inverter back in car.
IMG_1522_scale.JPG
Next to do is HV and LV wiring.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

Got the motor cable in place. Looks almost OEM if you ask me.
IMG_1524_scale.JPG
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by tom3141 »

Have you got any further with testing the MGR at higher voltage?

I have an MGR in my Suzuki Cappuccino and I’m having almost exactly the same problems you describe earlier in this thread. I’m running with a pack voltage of approx 320V and can only reach around 40mph (although acceleration is good up to that point).

What kind of speed did you manage when you boosted the voltage to 300V?
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

tom3141 wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:00 pm Have you got any further with testing the MGR at higher voltage?

I have an MGR in my Suzuki Cappuccino and I’m having almost exactly the same problems you describe earlier in this thread. I’m running with a pack voltage of approx 320V and can only reach around 40mph (although acceleration is good up to that point).

What kind of speed did you manage when you boosted the voltage to 300V?
No, I have not tested yet as the battery change process have been going very slow. I think it will be ready for test sometime during January, but not a promise.

I read your thread just now regarding this issue.
When I drove my car at nominal pack voltage (134V) it didn't stop to accelerate but the acceleration decreased very noticable at low speed. I could go faster but it took very long time to get up to speed. When I boosted the voltage to 300V the point with the acceleration decrease was moved up significantly but I did not test the any further then about 60km/h as the boosting started to get unsable if I pushed hard.
I'm changing to a 360V nominal battery pack and I think this will be enough to reach 70-80km/h which is what I need.

To test if to low voltage is your problem you can boost the voltage to around 400V and see if this helps.
The MGR seem to be very voltage hungry...
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

The battery change process goes very slow but now it is almost done.
Battery cells in battery box.
IMG_1568_scale.JPG
Next is to look into BMS and at least get cell voltage monitoring to work so I can test the car.
Wiring for the Prius inverter also needs to be sorted.
Lastly, get the charger running. Thanks to celeron55:s code this will hopefully be straightforward.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

Time for an update.
I now have all the HW in the car, some very temporary like the "charger" AC-input and the BMS is work in progress.
Pictures of engine bay. My intention is to stuff the AC-input in a sealed box when I know everything works the way I want it to.
IMG_1586_scale.JPG
IMG_1587_scale.JPG
A picture of the battery box as well with temporary BMS wiring.
IMG_1588_scale.JPG
Will get a PCB made for the BMS when everything is up and running.

I have weight the car and the result is just below 700kg, which is great!

I have also started the car for the first time in month and apparently there are some work to be done before it can drive...
The BMS hangs at times due to poor SW. I need to implement better error handling with the Maxim UART slave communication.
I also was unable to upload SW to the 328P on the logic board. So most likely the inverter needs to come out of the car again to find out why. I have wires from the board to the outside of the inverter and something might be wrong here.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

bexander wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:39 pm The BMS hangs at times due to poor SW. I need to implement better error handling with the Maxim UART slave communication.
I also was unable to upload SW to the 328P on the logic board. So most likely the inverter needs to come out of the car again to find out why. I have wires from the board to the outside of the inverter and something might be wrong here.
Turns out this was just a setting error in the Arduino IDE. I needed to change the board to a Arduino Nano as per instruction in celeron55:s code and the SW uploaded.

My BMS looses communication to slaves as soon as I run any motor current. A bit strange but I will look in to it.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

I have looked into the BMS communication issue and it turns out this is due to a isolation error between 12V system and HV system.

I did some measurements between inverter battery input and car body with the HV contactors on and the result is
-164,3V (-) GND(car body) to (+) HV battery negative
152,0V (-) GND(car body) to (+) HV battery positive
377,5V (-) HV battery negative to (+) HV battery positive

-176,2V (-) +12V to (+) HV battery negative
140,1V (-) +12V to (+) HV battery positive
377,4V (-) HV battery negative to (+) HV battery positive

When disconnecting the HV contactors and then measure I can still see the voltage between inverter input and car body so I believe that the fault is on the inverter side of the contactors and not the HV battery side. I still have voltage left in the HV DC capacitor in the inverter.

I have a couple of ideas on how to continue the measurements / fault tracing but if anyone have any other ideas or tricks to find the cause it is much appreciated!
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by johu »

You can try loading down the voltage with a 1M resistor. Is it gone then? Your voltmeter is pretty high impedance so it could be picking up capacitor leakage current. Maybe there are Y-caps in the inverter or it is the capacitance from die to chill plate?

BMS communication is challenging because naturally you can't separate signal and power conductors. Maybe you can improve something there?
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by celeron55 »

I'd check if just increasing the communication timeout in the BMS solves the problem. The interference could be bad enough that a longer timeout doesn't help but it's worth a try.
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Re: Renault Clio Electrique -97

Post by bexander »

To clarify, the BMS issue is probably due to the isolation issue. I get a lot of large spikes on the +12V system when I tried to run the motor.
If I don't run the motor the BMS communication works fine.
So my plan is to solve the isolation first and then see if the BMS communication is ok.

As I have not seen any reports from others having issues with isolation on the Toyota inverters I highly suspect I made some mistake in my wiring or I have a damaged inverter. Luckily I have a spare Yaris inverter on the bench which can be used for reference measurements if needed.

Plan forward is as follows:
I will first disconnect all other cables from the inverter when measuring, (heater core supply, charger AC input at MG1 and motor at MG2).
I will then test to load down the voltage with 1M resistor. I might also test with lower resistance using a filament lightbulb or similar.
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