[DRIVING] Audi A2 /w Prius Gen2 Transaxle & Inverter  [FINISHED]

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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

Thanks for all the great offers!
Damien do you think non-watercooled units will overheat on daily cruising? The performance target is very moderate anyway.
GaryClarke wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:21 am I will follow progress and document. The aim being to produce a how-to-guide to converting an A2 using Toyota hybrid parts.

The first objective to fund will be sourcing the parts. My initial search was for Generation 3 components.

Trans axle : https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osac ... x&_sacat=0

Transaxle mounts? : https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osac ... s&_sacat=0

Inverter : https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osac ... r&_sacat=0

Drive shafts : https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osac ... s&_sacat=0

Throttle pedal? : https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osac ... l&_sacat=0

HV wiring; https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osac ... g&_sacat=0
A catchy initial target for the project would be 60 miles at 60 mph of range for £6000. Or in metric 100 km at 100 kmh for 6000 euros.
Sounds good. I won't need a throttle pedal, A2 has electronic one already. So you'd get the funds together, order the parts and have them shipped over here? That would be great. Maybe better to go for Prius transaxle for the sake of better cooling? Lets wait for another word from Damien.

So with 3800€ for my surplus Leaf battery and say 1000€ for motor parts we'd be looking at 5000€ for about 160km of sensible driving.
arber333 wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:31 pm Johannes i got an offer from a friend who is driving a converted A2. It uses an old 30kW motor and inverter of Slovenian design. Aleš an Me made my inverter according to this design. System is 210Vdc.
Audi A2 is a pain because you need a host of CAN data to send so that main column knows that you are "running gas guzzler".

He is offering for me to listen on his CAN adapter that is sending that info over CAN so we can replicate its signals. I bet this will save you or anyone else a ton of trouble. I just need to go to him and make this work now with COVID19....
Yes that would be great. I could compare it with my findings in Touran. I hope it will be identical as Audi=VW. In that case I could reuse the Touran code.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by GaryClarke »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:32 pm
GaryClarke wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:21 pmDamian has offered up a gen 3 inverter.
Err, I think Damien offered a Gen3 Inverter control board. I.E. The thing he designed and had fabricated. Not the whole inverter.
So he did. Thanks.
Sounds good. I won't need a throttle pedal, A2 has electronic one already. So you'd get the funds together, order the parts and have them shipped over here? That would be great. Maybe better to go for Prius transaxle for the sake of better cooling? Lets wait for another word from Damien.
I'll check with back with you for your approval before ordering each item. At some point can you DM the delivery address

I'll get started with the syndicate (?) I haven't yet decided on the details of how this will work. All suggestions welcome.

First off does anyone reading this wish to contribute. Rather like a wedding gift list you could pledge to buy an item. Otherwise a financial contribution? Reply to the thread or DM me. If there is no objection from the admins, I may start a dedicated fund-raising thread.

The pay off will be the experience of learning from Johannes mistakes and triumphs. Possibly even a how to guide to converting an Audi A2 to EV with Toyota parts.

Thanks for taking this on Johannes. Good luck.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by Jack Bauer »

Obviously I have no idea of the implications of not having cooling on the transaxle but I i wll say this : wouldnt it be better to have cooling and not need it than vice versa.
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

Ah you know thats not my motto ;) for me it is: wouldn't it suck to have cooling and not need it :P Experience in Polo is good with pure passive cooling by just the airflow from driving. Even 40°C outside temperature and prolonged 10% stretches don't trigger the overheat switch.

That said, if there is no great price advantage between cooled and non-cooled transaxles I'd rather go with the cooled one indeed.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by GaryClarke »

What are your thoughts on these?

Gen 3 Transaxle from CT200 Appears to come with mounts and cables.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-PRIUS ... SwXepedecG

Inverter from a Prius

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-PRIUS ... Sw1p1eHdw4

I've contacted the seller about the driveshaft and if the Lexus inverter is available. Awaiting answer.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

Things have been developing so fast here that I haven't had a chance to actually speak to Thomas (the guy who owns the A2). Will do so this afternoon and get back here.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by RetroZero »

You guys are really on to it. Well done considering the context. I am trying to put together a similar project, so will follow closely and hope I can eventually assist towards D.I.Y Manual for Prius Transaxle conversions.
For the moment in France, batteries cannot be second hand, hence a huge barrier, which I am working on, along with steep homologation fees. The rest is the same - transaxle, inverter, junction box, etc -1000€. The plan is to create a 'standard kit' that could be duplicated to pay off homologation fees....Need to scale up fabrication of those Rev2 boards soon 8-)
For the Twizy motor, from what I understand, EU normes require CE certificate, so 'modifying' to 40kW and providing necessary paperwork = money.
I was going that route for my Renault 4L, but the 15kW CE made it underpowered, however, we now have the MGR :)
What I learned on the course in March was, keep it as simple as possible and use what is easily available..
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

So I talked to Thomas today. He is very grateful that you are willing to sponsor the drivetrain but he thinks he does not possess the skills to mount a foreign transmission into his A2. So creating the mechanical structure for mounting and joining up drive shafts. He would rather stick to the conventional method of mounting a motor to the existing transmission. Given that this is his first conversion, I can relate to that.

I couldn't be of much help either since I've only done motor-on-transmission based conversions.

The motor for my Polo is rated 18.5kW but since the engineer could tell from the test drive that it is capable to move the car around, that figure was pretty much meaningless to him.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by GaryClarke »

johu wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:53 pm So I talked to Thomas today. He is very grateful that you are willing to sponsor the drivetrain but he thinks he does not possess the skills to mount a foreign transmission into his A2. So creating the mechanical structure for mounting and joining up drive shafts. He would rather stick to the conventional method of mounting a motor to the existing transmission. Given that this is his first conversion, I can relate to that.
So can I. Wish him well and if he documents the build, we can look forward to following his progress.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

Today I got the Prius Gen 2 DC/DC converter to (partly) work. I connected a 12V battery to the output and also connected the "IGCT" input (orange wire on the 6-way connector) to 12V. I used 3 lab power supplies in series to feed 140V to the DC input.

The converter started outputting 13.5V and charged the battery at 2A. As soon as I connected a 55W H4 bulb voltage sagged below 13V.

So maybe my input voltage is too low or I need to do something to the other inputs as well. Also tried 12-volting the "NODD" and "S" (sense) input with no further change.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by arber333 »

johu wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:06 pm Today I got the Prius Gen 2 DC/DC converter to (partly) work. I connected a 12V battery to the output and also connected the "IGCT" input (orange wire on the 6-way connector) to 12V. I used 3 lab power supplies in series to feed 140V to the DC input.

The converter started outputting 13.5V and charged the battery at 2A. As soon as I connected a 55W H4 bulb voltage sagged below 13V.

So maybe my input voltage is too low or I need to do something to the other inputs as well. Also tried 12-volting the "NODD" and "S" (sense) input with no further change.
Yes it does that. But rather than give up you should try to load it with some 600W load and measure voltage drop.
I found out that it was viable to use down to 120Vdc where it would give about 12.4Vdc which is also the "50% empty" voltage for normal 12V battery. I actually tested it with 900W load of 9 H4 light bulbs with dual thread connected. I was illuminated quite severly still. Dont forget you will have 12V connected in parallel, which will help a lot.
140Vdc is a good voltage, but 150Vdc is better still.

A
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by RetroZero »

Thanks for the updates Johu. My Gen2 Inverter and Transaxle build will hopefully fill the FWD gap....
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by arber333 »

Hi Johannes

My friend with A2 EV came by today and we went to the car and inspected its CAN bus under the seat.
I noticed they just cut the ECU lines and they put one Arduino to this task. I noticed 6 wires going from arduino MCP CAN chip.
We have recorded CAN traffic with key OFF and ON. I got the signal in off state by powering Arduino from my PC.

First two files are taken from the working car. It is a log file made with CANalyst II.
Third file was recorded in OFF state with only Arduino powered. Strange thing here is that i got only x480 signal there. But if i turn ON ignition then this msg is not present.
We couldnt dig too much or disconnect too many wires, because he would need to return home still :). We did make a mistake though. We soldered some 30cm twisted wires to the chip and used that to probe CAN. When we removed my equipment his steering wouldnt work! Of course, cable impedance was screening CAN bus since i didnt put 120R resistor terminator in.

I attach some pics so you can see where the CAN lines are cut.

Also i found some nice A2 conversion from about the time i finished my Mazda. He also made a lot with CAN.
http://ev-a2.blogspot.com/2013/06/can-b ... arted.html

And some CAN facts...
https://a2-freun.de/forum/forums/topic/ ... e-can-ids/
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

Awesome, thanks! Will take a deeper look later.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

I may have found the matching connectors for encoder and temp sensor plug of the Twizy motor
6-pole encoder: Yakazi 7283-8850-30
3-pole temp sensor: Yakazi 7283-8852-30

https://www.auto-click.co.uk/6-way/yaza ... 83-8850-30
https://www.auto-click.co.uk/3-way/yaza ... 83-8852-30

Thanks Damien for pointing me in the right direction!
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by Jack Bauer »

Ah cool you found it:)
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by DrKaputzi »

Dear All,
After some agonising over whether or not to choose a high voltage motor salvaged from either an outlander or a toyota rear drive unit MGR, i finally discovered the Twizy motor can offer me a sufficient torque and wide speed range for my project without requiring a high voltage battery pack.
So i have bought a Twizy motor. And i am delighted with reading its specification and the performance potential found from those folk out there who are tuning the stock Sevcon G4 controller.
I also choose the Twizy motor for that reason i figured it would be quite easy and inexpensive to control using the as standard choice of Sevcon Gen4 48V.
Turns out actually getting hold of one these Sevcon Gen4 is not so cheap (circa Eu500 new), and the several suppliers i have contacted have also indicated me to purchase a IXXAT USB to CAN interface to allow programming of the Sevcon.
So that was all sounding to become more expensive and off track from what i expected. At least i was hoping to do teh control without purchasing any further proprietary interface, - what am i missing here? i had assumed the Sevcon was using CANopen and would be easily accessible?

So i was very happy to discover this recent video 'Lab Update #36 - Prius Controller Progress' - and it brings me here now to this forum.

I was aware of this forum and the reverse engineering and re-purposing of high voltage oem HEV/EV inverters, but i had presumed these units were only applicable to high voltage AC motor and not suitable to operating a Twizy motor from a lowly 48v DC supply Battery.
But it seems i was quite wrong and i would be missing a great learning opportunity to adopt this route.
However i did just read the MG2 Prius inverter is rated until 350A, whereas the Sevcon G4 4845 has a max 540A which it appears to support Twizy tuning until 80Nm to 100Nm Torque is possible running a Sevcon G4 4845. Perhaps that would not be possible with a Prius inverter?
Aside from the max current/Peak Torque, is there any drawback with feeding only 48v to one of these HV inverters which are intended for HV application?
JoHu mentioned some non-optimal behaviour testing at 24v?
I am sorry if that seems yet a dumb question amid the context of the expertise in this forum, but i am only asking to learn.
Thanks.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

Oh, missed that question... Yes you can run a high voltage inverter with low voltage, you just have to live with the typically lower current capability.

I visited Thomas last week and in his very engineery fashion he had done various calculations for power demand on his daily commute. He doubts the Twizy motor can sustain 110 km/h for 20 minutes. That would need 20kW and the motor is rated 13kW for 1 minute. Yes that is pessimistic, but when I compare it to the motor I use in Polo it has downsides: no cooling fins, lower mass (40kg vs. 66kg), much lower operating voltage (33 Vac vs. 360 Vac).

So we pretty much decided to leave the Twizy route and came up with some alternatives:
- Rewind the motor to higher voltage
- Use a different motor, e.g. the smart ED motor
- Use the actual Prius transaxle (see older posts on his "excitement" about it)

I think he bought a smart motor now.

We also looked at his Audi a bit more thoroughly. Turns out it also has electric power steering, so one thing less to keep going. On the other hand he wants to keep the A/C, I told him to find some 12V motor to run the stock compressor. Is that a good idea or are there better options?

The full Leaf battery pack will sit under driver and passenger seat and it will replace the rear seats. He will mostly be in the car alone so doesn't mind loosing it. It's a very simple solution compared to mounting batteries under the car.

For the smart motor they will go all in series. Of course thats an issue for 1-phase charging with the Prius inverter and we might end up installing a dedicated one. Also the DC/DC converter needs some resistor modification to run at 400V, I hear.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by arber333 »

That's too bad for twizzy motor. Like I said if you used 120v you could get 40kw out of it. And then you could put one car fan on it to cool it down.

But Smart motor would be good. 55kw. You also want to use smart DCDC?

For AC I recommend prius Gen 2 compressor. It can run at 360V no problem. I am developing small 25a sensorless inverter based on lebowski brain. It should work as a module from HV battery power. It should be spooled up with AC clutch signal.
The best thing about Gen 2 prius AC is you can put it wherever you like...
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by tom91 »

Any body have any good reference dimensions of the space under the boot and rear seats?

Trying to figure out how easy it is to get some batteries in one.

Looks like a great little car to convert, specially since they are so cheap now days.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

Under the seats we fitted 10 on each side.

Code: Select all

^
| Facing forward

Driver seat             Passenger seat
|---------------|     |---------------|
||---------|
|| 4 cells |             Same here
||_________|
||---------|
|| 6 cells |
||_________|
|_______________|
The floor slopes upwards towards the front of the car, thats why only 4 cells fit there. About 8cm of room are left next to the cells. Will probably put contactors there. So now with the dimensions of Leaf cells you can roughly calculate available volume.
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by tom91 »

Thank you.

How about under rear seat and or boot?
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by arber333 »

tom91 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:18 pm Thank you.

How about under rear seat and or boot?
You can put about 20kw in the boot and under the rear seats together. My friend has done so with 60 lifepo4 cells and they fit... Tightly.

I never thought putting cells under driver seat. There is some electronics there and lots of cables no?
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by johu »

The smart motor has arrived. It is so tiny! About 200mm diameter and 230mm long :)

It has inward splines, I'm looking forward to seeing Thomas' solution to that.

Anyone know part numbers for resolver and thermistor connectors?
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Re: Audi A2 /w Twizy Motor and Prius Inverter

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

johu wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:37 pmHe doubts the Twizy motor can sustain 110 km/h for 20 minutes. That would need 20kW and the motor is rated 13kW for 1 minute.
Too late to matter, but for conversation...

The thing about moving at 110km/h... is that you have air moving past at 110km/h. That's quite a bit of forced air cooling by definition.

What I want is to use other people's projects to fulfill my personal curiosity. I want to say "Try it and see what happens!" I want to know! :p
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