[Driving] MG F - Outlander Rear motor and inverter.

[LRBen]

Here we go! Had the Outlander rear diff delivered this week. Going to spend the next week trying to find a replacement wiring loom plug for it.

Ordered one of Johu's control boards for the inverter. Planning to play around with it on the 48v battery from my quad bike initially and see if I can start getting lights to blink or something.

Already starting to think about other tasks on the car. Things like:
Cooling, I think I will connect the inverter and motor cooling lines together and run them to the radiator at the front of the car. I did buy the inverter pump but I think it might be a bit small for pumping coolant that far.

Dash readouts. It's pre canbus, so I'll have to spend some time figuring out how each readout receives its data and then think how I can emulate that to be relevant to the new drive train.

Battery location. Planning on using BMW hybrid batteries, MG Fs are light on the front so I'll put the first pack there and see how it goes. I was hoping to weigh the car before and after to see how this affects the front/rear balance. But car scales seem very expensive.

[arber333]

I was hoping to weigh the car before and after to see how this affects the front/rear balance. But car scales seem very expensive.

Well you take the car to a local scrapyard carry some Pb batteries and let them weigh your car with and without those batteries or other scrap load.
You get a free weighing . Later on you repeat that with finished EV car .

[celeron55]

You might even find a scale that's free to drive on regardless whether you've got any business there. There's a saw mill near me with a scale on their front driveway that I weighed my donor car on.

[Alibro]

When you remove the fuel tank there should be a fair bit of room for batteries, there won't be much room under the bonnet.
Have you got the pump for pumping up the suspension? I can't remember what the height is meant to be but should be easy to find out.
The electric steering will save you time there and no CAN will also help.
Like I said before I'm watching with interest. Especially now your working with a gen 2 prius inverter as I have one too.

[Kevin Sharpe]

But car scales seem very expensive.

Work as a group in the UK and purchase a set of scales that you can use/hire out to people who are doing conversions. We're setting up a scheme in Ireland where converters can hire useful tools

[LRBen]

When you remove the fuel tank there should be a fair bit of room for batteries, there won't be much room under the bonnet.
Have you got the pump for pumping up the suspension? I can't remember what the height is meant to be but should be easy to find out.

Thanks for the pointer on the fuel tank. Waiting for space in the shed at the moment before I get the car in and drop all of that out.
I have a pump for the suspension. It was almost scraping the bottom of the car on large bits of gravel when I first got it! Pretty easy to pump up actually, although it might be trickier the next time as there will be air in the system. But that's a problem for future me.

There is already bits missing from the car now so the time for weighing it has passed. Although ICE weight distribution should be easy enough to find out. Will be plenty of time to weigh it after when it's finished.

Got the motor spinning today in manual mode. Going to plug in the throttle tomorrow and try to get it running on that. Then I need to add in forward and reverse controls.

Video of the setup at the moment:

[Alibro]

Sweet!
Any idea how much power you can get from this setup? Would it be as much as the Leaf's 80kW?

The speedo on my MGF was driven by a cable from the gearbox but it was a 99 model. I believe post 2000 they were electronic but I've no idea how it worked.

The electric steering should make things more simple.

Would you consider replacing the subframes with ones from a TF to do away with the Spheres. Last time I checked they were made of unobtainium.

[LRBen]

On paper its 60kW, but later models are 70kW and its the same part number. So I suspect power is limited by the batteries in the same manner as the leaf motors.

So it should be interesting to see what power it can produce. With several hybrid packs in parallel that should remove the battery power limitations.

I haven't look into the speedo or anything like that yet. Too focused on the motor right now. I'm not planning on changing any of the subframe. Changing the engine and gearbox is about the limit of what I can change before the DVLA classify it as heavily modified and want an IVA. Plenty of second hand spheres around to see me through if I need them. I also like to keep as much as I can original.

[TFirenza]

How are you planning to wire your packs as I've read about the issues with parallel strings. https://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/pa ... trings.pdf

I was thinking as each bmw pack 16s they could be configured as pairs to make an effective 16S2P module then wire up these in series up to full voltage though my understanding is still in progress

[LRBen]

How are you planning to wire your packs as I've read about the issues with parallel strings. https://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/pa ... trings.pdf

I was thinking as each bmw pack 16s they could be configured as pairs to make an effective 16S2P module then wire up these in series up to full voltage though my understanding is still in progress

I haven't put too much thought or research into the batteries just yet. However my initial thoughts are to use SIMP BMS to control the OEM BMS on the battery packs. I believe I should be able to then monitor each module individually.
Reading that link and thinking about it a tiny bit more. I could potentially treat each BMW pack as a separate battery and drain/charge one at a time. Which would remove the parallel string issues if I can think of a simple way to manage them. Should still be enough capacity in each pack to draw more power than the motor could use.

[TFirenza]

That could work but I think it would be a concern, with large differences in potential between both packs if one pack is discharged and the other remains charged. Even if disconnected with a relay there is a risk there if a contactor malfunctions

[LRBen]

That could work but I think it would be a concern, with large differences in potential between both packs if one pack is discharged and the other remains charged. Even if disconnected with a relay there is a risk there if a contactor malfunctions

That's true. I think I might go down the 16s2p route in the end.

On a three day week now so I have a bit more time for this project. Also I also have to squeeze in upgrading my quad motor to 72v and a Defender restoration.

I now have the sub frame out of the car. Planning to disassemble it and split the engine and gearbox next weekend.

[Maker_of_Things]

I was hoping to weigh the car before and after to see how this affects the front/rear balance. But car scales seem very expensive.

I thought the same. In the end I decided to buy a crane scale and weigh each wheel at a time to get a close approximation. With a flat floor and blocks under the other three wheels it would be more accurate.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=946&start=50#p15871

[Alibro]

That could work but I think it would be a concern, with large differences in potential between both packs if one pack is discharged and the other remains charged. Even if disconnected with a relay there is a risk there if a contactor malfunctions

That's true. I think I might go down the 16s2p route in the end.

On a three day week now so I have a bit more time for this project. Also I also have to squeeze in upgrading my quad motor to 72v and a Defender restoration.

I now have the sub frame out of the car. Planning to disassemble it and split the engine and gearbox next weekend.

This photo reminds me of the time I helped a mate take his rear subframe and engine out. He had a large 3 or 4 inch plank the full width of the car with notches out of it for sills etc. The car was jacked up enough for this plank to go underneath at the back of the doors with a trolley jack so I was able to jack the rear of the car up high enough to roll the subframe out. It was only marginally less precarious looking than you're setup.

[LRBen]

He had a large 3 or 4 inch plank the full width of the car with notches out of it for sills etc. The car was jacked up enough for this plank to go underneath at the back of the doors with a trolley jack so I was able to jack the rear of the car up high enough to roll the subframe out. It was only marginally less precarious looking than you're setup.

That's probably the best way to do it without a two post lift. But I didn't want to make a plank. I'll make it allot more sturdier and probably lower before I actually do work on the car.

[LRBen]

Engine has been sold. Subframe currently being cleaned up and repainted along with all the suspension components. It's all in pretty good condition given the age. No sign of anything more than just surface rust and road crude. Will wire brush everything down, treat hard to reach places with rust converter then Hammerite paint over everything.
Put a few of the smaller items in the Electrolysis tank, it's a bit overkill but it impresses people at the farm.

Took the fuel tank out after giving it a few weeks to shrink down a little bit(It's plastic). There is a good amount of space there, but I will have to wait on the batteries to arrive before I can figure out exactly how much I can fit there. It's a little narrower on the driver side so that might limit things.

Talking of batteries I have those secured. Got in on the Kokam cells and have 180 cells on the way. Planning to use them in a 72s2p config. Should give a 266v nominal pack with a 28kWh capacity. The cells are rated at way higher discharge than my inverter can handle, so I figure that is a neat safety feature. Then I have a few spare cells for another quadbike or motorbike project.

So next steps are to carry on cleaning up the subframe, test mount the motor and inverter, make up the new battery and throw it all in. Easy...

[Alibro]

Great update, I loved my old F but it needed a pile of money spent on it and I wasn't using it enough to justify.
Going electric means loosing the bits that let it down like poor gear change and rubbish clutch.
I did like the engine but lack of torque let it down.

[LRBen]

Batteries arrived!

Turns out they are bigger than I expected and they won't fit in the fuel tank area without some modifications. I did briefly consider keeping them as they are and just doing a roughly 84s1p battery so I don't need to reassemble them or find as much space in the car. But I think I will push ahead and reconfigure the 10s modules to 5s2p. Then aim for my original 72s2p battery.

I can fit 40 cells in the front where the spare tire usually goes without any cutting. So that just leaves 104 cells to be placed in the fuel tank area. I will have to remove the firewall which originally separated the engine bay and fuel tank. It's just a thin piece of metal so isn't structural.
My plan is to do this and then test fit the subframe with motor and inverter mounted. This will then allow me to see how far back I can go with the batteries. Then I can make up a casing and the structure to hold the pack.

So for now I'll leave the cells as they are and keep working on the subframe and getting the motor mounted. A couple of these 10s1p modules would make a great 72v motorbike/quad battery pack though.

Subframe is almost all back together now with some fancy new polybushes in places and looking nicely painted. Then it's fabrication time to make the mounts. Time is being split between this, the MPCNC router build, 72v quadbike upgrade and the Defender. Too much time, not enough projects!

[Alibro]

Where did you get the batteries? I'm not far enough on to be searching yet but probably should keep an eye out for them.

Have you considered fitting a TF suspension? I'm not sure what would be involved and haven't looked at MG's in a few years but the Spheres were a big issue last time I checked.
My F had an issue with being tracked and I couldn't figure out why. I took it to several tyre places to set the tracking but every time I drove away the car was pulling to the left. I always ended up tweaking the tracking myself to dial out the pull but in the end I put the problem down to bent suspension at the rear. The paint was poor too so in the end I lost heart in it and sold it on.

[LRBen]

Picked up the batteries from the Kokam batteries thread on the classified section. Worth keeping an eye on on the classified section here, there have been a few decent things come up.

Had a quick look at coilover kits for the MGF, too pricey to be worth it for me at this moment. It was handling fine before I took it all apart so I'll hope for the best and worry about it later on. Also I think I need to be careful about changing too much of the vehicle or the DVLA will want to get it retested as a radically modified vehicle.

[Alibro]

Cool thanks, I must keep a closer eye on it.

Good point about the changes. I was thinking more of swapping out the F sub-frame and suspension with same from a TF but if it was OK before then it should still be. Maybe the F suspension will be even better since it is so easy to adjust the ride height.

[LRBen]

So a bit of a slight change in design now.

Subframe is all restored, and I was looking at mounting the Outlander motor/Diff. I did initially decide that I would make up the new driveshafts myself, using the two original pairs. Getting custom drive shafts made was was going to be around £200-300+VAT each!
However I realised that in the Outlander the motor is sat to the rear of the differential. Which meant that in my setup the motor would be backwards as that is the only way it would fit.

So I have decided that I will have the motor attach to the original gearbox via an adaptor plate. The pros of this setup:

• No making up drive shafts.

• Making up an adaptor plate is simpler.

• Makes mounting the motor in the subframe easier, as the gearbox already mounts on the one side.

• 2nd gear is almost exactly the same ratio as the Outlander Differential. 1st gear is a relatively big jump down in the ratio, so that will be the tyre spinning mode.

• Speedo will work again with no extra work

• Reverse light will work with no extra work.

The PG1 gearbox variant in the MG is good for 216nm of torque, so there is a little bit of headroom. If that breaks there are pretty cheap options to upgrade the gearbox with steel caged bearings and an LSD etc. It was used on everything from Rover 25s and Freelanders to the Lotus Elise in various gearsets.

The main con is the loss of efficiency by going through the gearbox, and now I have to put the gearstick back in the car.

[Alibro]

Just a thought and maybe not simple but if you have access to a lathe it might be possible to cut the Outlander and F drive shafts then turn down a steel rod to put inside the two halves. That way you'd be guaranteed to have them straight and it would be possible to weld them.
Maybe hard to keep them balanced though.

[LRBen]

That was pretty similar to what I had planned to do with the driveshafts.
But then I was wooed by the ease of using the gearbox and 2400nm to the wheels in first gear.

[jap]

Efficiency difference should be just 1-2% at most with a FWD style gearbox vs. EV single reduction.