[Driving] MG F - Outlander Rear motor and inverter.

Tell us about the project you do with the open inverter
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LRBen
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[Driving] MG F - Outlander Rear motor and inverter.

Post by LRBen »

Hi all, I've been lurking here since the most recent Fully Charged Live when I met Damien and Kevin.

Initially this project was going to be on the back burner for quite a while. I wasn't planning on actually buying the car this year but an Ebay auction ended at a strange time and my low bid ended up winning. I am also in the middle of converting a 1987 Yamaha quad bike to electric, which I could make a separate post about if anyone is interested, however it is using a fairly generic 4kw Chinesium motor and controller. So not much hacking to be done there.
20190401_135533.jpg
The initial plan for this was to use one of the Siemens AC motors that have been around for some years now. There is someone in Australia doing the same car with one of those. I didn't want to go with Tesla components just due to the cost(It's a 90s MG, not a classic car).
However Kevin mentioned at Fully Charged that Leaf motors were now relatively cheap(I thought I heard 300 euros, or is that just the inverter?) and had more than enough power for the job. I also saw the very nice looking MG TF that Indra brought along with a Leaf motor conversion.

So this suddenly made this whole project much more feasible in the short term. The plan is to try and source a Leaf motor and then go from there. I'll be picking up the basics skills wise from my initial quad and solar projects going on now. So by the time I get this motor I should be better equipped to handle the car conversion.

The first question I have is where can you find these Leaf motors? I have been looking on Ebay and can see them for around a grand each, is that a reasonable amount to pay?
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Re: MG F

Post by celeron55 »

If you're getting the leaf motor, might as well buy it with the inverter and at least the motor sensor wiring harness. I got also the PDM with charging connectors and the transaxle and paid about 1500€ for all of it on ebay. The transaxle I sold to a friend for 200€.

I think something along those lines is a good deal.
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Re: MG F

Post by LRBen »

celeron55 wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:13 pm If you're getting the leaf motor, might as well buy it with the inverter and at least the motor sensor wiring harness. I got also the PDM with charging connectors and the transaxle and paid about 1500€ for all of it on ebay. The transaxle I sold to a friend for 200€.

I think something along those lines is a good deal.
Sounds good. Thanks for the info.
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Re: MG F

Post by doobedoobedo »

I got a very low mileage 2016 leaf motor from Charles Trent for £950+vat delivered (see my thread for what I got), they usually seem to have a few in stock. They have their own site (https://www.trents.co.uk/) which has the same stuff but higher priced than https://www.autopartstrader.co.uk/ which also seems to be pretty much exclusively them. You can try https://www.partshark.co.uk/ too but quotes I've had back from there have always been high (more than double what I ended up paying). I think there's plenty of leaf motors kicking around.
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Re: MG F

Post by LRBen »

doobedoobedo wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:57 pm I got a very low mileage 2016 leaf motor from Charles Trent for £950+vat delivered (see my thread for what I got), they usually seem to have a few in stock. They have their own site (https://www.trents.co.uk/) which has the same stuff but higher priced than https://www.autopartstrader.co.uk/ which also seems to be pretty much exclusively them. You can try https://www.partshark.co.uk/ too but quotes I've had back from there have always been high (more than double what I ended up paying). I think there's plenty of leaf motors kicking around.
That's a helpful link. Thanks. I'm still trying to process all the info on this site, can't believe I missed that post in your thread.
I think I'll check with my local scrap yard as well. They know me already from other projects so I'll make sure they let me know if any electric vehicles head their way. Might get something useful even if it isn't a leaf motor.
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Re: MG F

Post by Alibro »

Hi
I'm a lurker too and this is my first post here. My intrest was peaked when I saw MGF as I had one for a couple of years.
How is this going?
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Re: MG F

Post by xp677 »

Try to get as much of the car as you can. You'll be amazed at how quickly the price of connectors, wiring, hoses, brackets, etc starts adding up. I just spend £35 on a coolant bottle from a Leaf, for example.

In many cases, it's more economical to buy a complete car and sell the parts you don't need. For cheaper cars, try an auction site like Copart and buy a crashed one.
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Re: MG F

Post by LRBen »

Alibro wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:27 am Hi
I'm a lurker too and this is my first post here. My interest was peaked when I saw MGF as I had one for a couple of years.
How is this going?
Sorry this project kept getting postponed further and further back. I ended up replacing the blown head gasket and doing a small rebuild of the engine. So no electric for this MG for a couple of years yet!

I have finished the quad project for the most part now. Might even see if I can drag it along to the next Fully Charge Live given that there is now another few months before it happens.
My next project is probably a small Leaf powered tractor, but I quite like the idea of doing a low cost conversion on my Freelander with hybrid batteries rather than a full pack. If I get serious on that I will make a post about it.
xp677 wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:05 pm Try to get as much of the car as you can. You'll be amazed at how quickly the price of connectors, wiring, hoses, brackets, etc starts adding up. I just spend £35 on a coolant bottle from a Leaf, for example.

In many cases, it's more economical to buy a complete car and sell the parts you don't need. For cheaper cars, try an auction site like Copart and buy a crashed one.
Thanks for the advice, I was leaning more towards that idea as I saw what prices were being charged for the odd Leaf cable.
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Re: MG F

Post by LRBen »

Ok this project has come back to the front of the Que. Changed the head gasket and it was running very nicely. Then the clutch started to slip.. Which was expected, but I was hoping to get a few more months out of it.

I am thinking of using the Prius inverter/converter with an Outlander PHEV rear diff now. There should be plenty of room for the rear diff and inverter in the engine bay.
Batteries wise I will use the BMW hybrid packs. I am buying quite a few to cover all my other projects as well, so I shall start with one whole pack, probably located in the front of the car and then go from there. Range isn't important to start with. If It can go 30 miles that's 90% of my journeys.

I'm planning to visit the local scrap yards now they are open again and see if I can source some of these parts a bit cheaper than Ebay.

Has anyone ran up an Outlander Phev rear diff with the Prius inverter before? In theory it should be simple enough right?
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Re: MG F

Post by LRBen »

This project is progressing much faster this time around.

Dropped by the local scrap yard and they don't have much in the way of Electric or Hybrids still. But I did manage to find a Prius Gen 2 and picked up the inverter plus most of the wires for £80. I would have preferred the Gen 3 but I think this will provide more than enough power. Ordered the Prius inverter gen 2 control board tonight.

Started to put some offers in on a PHEV Outlander Rear differential as well. A couple of weeks and I should have something to play around with.
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Re: MG F

Post by LRBen »

Here we go! Had the Outlander rear diff delivered this week. Going to spend the next week trying to find a replacement wiring loom plug for it.

Ordered one of Johu's control boards for the inverter. Planning to play around with it on the 48v battery from my quad bike initially and see if I can start getting lights to blink or something.

Already starting to think about other tasks on the car. Things like:
Cooling, I think I will connect the inverter and motor cooling lines together and run them to the radiator at the front of the car. I did buy the inverter pump but I think it might be a bit small for pumping coolant that far.

Dash readouts. It's pre canbus, so I'll have to spend some time figuring out how each readout receives its data and then think how I can emulate that to be relevant to the new drive train.

Battery location. Planning on using BMW hybrid batteries, MG Fs are light on the front so I'll put the first pack there and see how it goes. I was hoping to weigh the car before and after to see how this affects the front/rear balance. But car scales seem very expensive.
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Re: MG F

Post by arber333 »

LRBen wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:47 pm I was hoping to weigh the car before and after to see how this affects the front/rear balance. But car scales seem very expensive.
Well you take the car to a local scrapyard carry some Pb batteries and let them weigh your car with and without those batteries or other scrap load.
You get a free weighing :). Later on you repeat that with finished EV car :).
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by celeron55 »

You might even find a scale that's free to drive on regardless whether you've got any business there. There's a saw mill near me with a scale on their front driveway that I weighed my donor car on.
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by Alibro »

When you remove the fuel tank there should be a fair bit of room for batteries, there won't be much room under the bonnet.
Have you got the pump for pumping up the suspension? I can't remember what the height is meant to be but should be easy to find out.
The electric steering will save you time there and no CAN will also help.
Like I said before I'm watching with interest. Especially now your working with a gen 2 prius inverter as I have one too.
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Re: MG F

Post by Kevin Sharpe »

LRBen wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:47 pm But car scales seem very expensive.
Work as a group in the UK and purchase a set of scales that you can use/hire out to people who are doing conversions. We're setting up a scheme in Ireland where converters can hire useful tools :)
This is a personal post and I disclaim all responsibility for any loss or damage which any person may suffer from reliance on the information and material in this post or any opinion, conclusion or recommendation in the information and material.
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by LRBen »

Alibro wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:05 am When you remove the fuel tank there should be a fair bit of room for batteries, there won't be much room under the bonnet.
Have you got the pump for pumping up the suspension? I can't remember what the height is meant to be but should be easy to find out.
Thanks for the pointer on the fuel tank. Waiting for space in the shed at the moment before I get the car in and drop all of that out.
I have a pump for the suspension. It was almost scraping the bottom of the car on large bits of gravel when I first got it! Pretty easy to pump up actually, although it might be trickier the next time as there will be air in the system. But that's a problem for future me.

There is already bits missing from the car now so the time for weighing it has passed. Although ICE weight distribution should be easy enough to find out. Will be plenty of time to weigh it after when it's finished.

Got the motor spinning today in manual mode. Going to plug in the throttle tomorrow and try to get it running on that. Then I need to add in forward and reverse controls.

Video of the setup at the moment:

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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by Alibro »

Sweet!
Any idea how much power you can get from this setup? Would it be as much as the Leaf's 80kW?

The speedo on my MGF was driven by a cable from the gearbox but it was a 99 model. I believe post 2000 they were electronic but I've no idea how it worked.

The electric steering should make things more simple.

Would you consider replacing the subframes with ones from a TF to do away with the Spheres. Last time I checked they were made of unobtainium.
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by LRBen »

On paper its 60kW, but later models are 70kW and its the same part number. So I suspect power is limited by the batteries in the same manner as the leaf motors.

So it should be interesting to see what power it can produce. With several hybrid packs in parallel that should remove the battery power limitations.

I haven't look into the speedo or anything like that yet. Too focused on the motor right now. I'm not planning on changing any of the subframe. Changing the engine and gearbox is about the limit of what I can change before the DVLA classify it as heavily modified and want an IVA. Plenty of second hand spheres around to see me through if I need them. I also like to keep as much as I can original.
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by TFirenza »

How are you planning to wire your packs as I've read about the issues with parallel strings. https://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/pa ... trings.pdf

I was thinking as each bmw pack 16s they could be configured as pairs to make an effective 16S2P module then wire up these in series up to full voltage though my understanding is still in progress :D
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by LRBen »

TFirenza wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:25 pm How are you planning to wire your packs as I've read about the issues with parallel strings. https://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/pa ... trings.pdf

I was thinking as each bmw pack 16s they could be configured as pairs to make an effective 16S2P module then wire up these in series up to full voltage though my understanding is still in progress :D
I haven't put too much thought or research into the batteries just yet. However my initial thoughts are to use SIMP BMS to control the OEM BMS on the battery packs. I believe I should be able to then monitor each module individually.
Reading that link and thinking about it a tiny bit more. I could potentially treat each BMW pack as a separate battery and drain/charge one at a time. Which would remove the parallel string issues if I can think of a simple way to manage them. Should still be enough capacity in each pack to draw more power than the motor could use.
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by TFirenza »

That could work but I think it would be a concern, with large differences in potential between both packs if one pack is discharged and the other remains charged. Even if disconnected with a relay there is a risk there if a contactor malfunctions
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by LRBen »

TFirenza wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:45 pm That could work but I think it would be a concern, with large differences in potential between both packs if one pack is discharged and the other remains charged. Even if disconnected with a relay there is a risk there if a contactor malfunctions
That's true. I think I might go down the 16s2p route in the end.

On a three day week now so I have a bit more time for this project. Also I also have to squeeze in upgrading my quad motor to 72v and a Defender restoration.

I now have the sub frame out of the car. Planning to disassemble it and split the engine and gearbox next weekend.
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Re: MG F

Post by Maker_of_Things »

LRBen wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:47 pm I was hoping to weigh the car before and after to see how this affects the front/rear balance. But car scales seem very expensive.
I thought the same. In the end I decided to buy a crane scale and weigh each wheel at a time to get a close approximation. With a flat floor and blocks under the other three wheels it would be more accurate.
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by Alibro »

LRBen wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:35 pm
TFirenza wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:45 pm That could work but I think it would be a concern, with large differences in potential between both packs if one pack is discharged and the other remains charged. Even if disconnected with a relay there is a risk there if a contactor malfunctions
That's true. I think I might go down the 16s2p route in the end.

On a three day week now so I have a bit more time for this project. Also I also have to squeeze in upgrading my quad motor to 72v and a Defender restoration.

I now have the sub frame out of the car. Planning to disassemble it and split the engine and gearbox next weekend.
This photo reminds me of the time I helped a mate take his rear subframe and engine out. He had a large 3 or 4 inch plank the full width of the car with notches out of it for sills etc. The car was jacked up enough for this plank to go underneath at the back of the doors with a trolley jack so I was able to jack the rear of the car up high enough to roll the subframe out. It was only marginally less precarious looking than you're setup. :o
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Re: MG F - Outlander Rear differential with Prius Gen 2 Inverter.

Post by LRBen »

Alibro wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:22 pm He had a large 3 or 4 inch plank the full width of the car with notches out of it for sills etc. The car was jacked up enough for this plank to go underneath at the back of the doors with a trolley jack so I was able to jack the rear of the car up high enough to roll the subframe out. It was only marginally less precarious looking than you're setup. :o
That's probably the best way to do it without a two post lift. But I didn't want to make a plank. I'll make it allot more sturdier and probably lower before I actually do work on the car.
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