Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Tell us about the project you do with the open inverter
User avatar
celeron55
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by celeron55 »

bexander wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:49 am Very interesting!
How much power are you getting from the MGR? Specially at higher speeds, >40km/h?
Does this mean you are running 50/50 id/iq distribution all the time and still get FW?
Honestly I have no idea what's happening. I'm just messing with the parameters. The FW controller is doing its thing, but given the timing modification, what's actually happening at the motor is probably not exactly what's intended. UNLESS there's something not taken into account originally and this actually fixes the timing somehow.

With these parameters I can push something like 14kW to the MGR at 80km/h. It would move a small car quite well already but I'll somehow need to squeeze some more for this beast.

EDIT: Some graphs. The gearing happens to be such that fstat=300 is roughly 80km/h. You can also see it's quite unstable when trying to maintain 50km/h - not comfortable really at all:
tscrot-2021-10-10_07-59-06 syncadv30.png
User avatar
celeron55
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by celeron55 »

I just noticed I have idcmax at 60A from some previous testing.

Increasing that one might give it some more punch at the mid range, but probably won't affect low and high speed performance at all as 60A at 370V is 22kW. Well, I'll go do another test drive in a moment.

EDIT: Here's what real testing looks like:
20211010_122320.jpg
User avatar
bexander
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:00 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by bexander »

Regarding the timing of the SW I think the offset in the syncadv calculation maybe coule be removed?
int syncadv = (frq - FP_FROMINT(20)) * Param::GetInt(Param::syncadv);
What will happen if this is set to 0?
User avatar
celeron55
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by celeron55 »

Did more testing:

I increased idcmax to 120A, and it gave a boost in performance from about 15km/h to 40km/h. Should be more than enough acceleration in stop-and-go city traffic. Seems to peak at about idc=80 to 90A which is somewhere around 30kW.

Then I tested with syncadv=40 and syncadv=35. Couldn't really tell a difference to syncadv=30.

Then I took off with syncadv=20 and after 40km/h decided it was so slow it wasn't worth testing. Conveniently I had left the capturing off also, so no graph of that one. I stopped, switched to syncadv=50 and continued the run. There wasn't a considerable difference to syncadv=30.

For the way back I switched to syncadv=60. This made the inverter's reported values go way off, showing like idc=10A at 80km/h and negative idc when in fact there was no regen, more like automatic throttle. So clearly there's a reasonable limit to this and syncadv=60 is beyond the limit. This actually makes some sense: 300Hz * 60dig/Hz / 65536dig * 360° = 99°, which means there's more than 90° of phase offset at 300Hz, in addition to the 45° caused by the id=-iq configuration I am using, not mentioning what the FW controller is adding to id.

Interestingly, when calculating the same thing using syncadv=30, at 300Hz basically all the current is id and iq is zero, to which you still need to add the additional id added by the FW controller. As a result the inverter output phase is more than 90° advanced to the resolver position. Of course the inverter doesn't show it as such as it doesn't realize what syncadv is doing to the actual phase offset.

Then I reverted to syncadv=30 and tried a throtiq=1.8 throtid=-2.2 configuration. The differences were too small to properly notice, but it might have resulted in less oscillation when driving slowly, but worse high speed acceleration. For the way back I swapped the parameters to throtiq=2.2 throtid=-1.8 and the result in comparison was the opposite, more slow speed (15-50km/h) oscillation and better high speed acceleration. In comparison to iq=2.0, id=-2.0, it wasn't better. Keep also in mind the battery voltage had dropped about 9% already, which also worsens performance.

I don't know what to make of this. I think what's interesting is how wide the well performing syncadv range is (maybe 25...50), yet how far it is from the recommended value. What also is noticeable is I can't seem to get the motor to accept more than about 15kW at 80km/h (300Hz).

EDIT: I think I might have to start doing some tests with the FW controller disabled.

EDIT: Graph of the idc=120A test
tscrot-2021-10-10_12-34-06_idcmax120.png
User avatar
johu
Site Admin
Posts: 5769
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:52 pm
Location: Kassel/Germany
Has thanked: 157 times
Been thanked: 1011 times
Contact:

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by johu »

Not quite Heureka yet ;)
So no matter how hard you try to limit back EMF by additional field weakening, you just don't get much more performance because so much amplitude is used up for field weakening, right?
Want to repeat the test with 5.12.R firmware with fwkp cranked up above 50 Hz or so?
bexander wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:38 am Regarding the timing of the SW I think the offset in the syncadv calculation maybe coule be removed?
int syncadv = (frq - FP_FROMINT(20)) * Param::GetInt(Param::syncadv);
What will happen if this is set to 0?
there will be a bit more oscilation when driving slowly.
Support R/D and forum on Patreon: https://patreon.com/openinverter - Subscribe on odysee: https://odysee.com/@openinverter:9
User avatar
celeron55
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by celeron55 »

I should describe the test road's altitude profile: It's basically about 300 meters of more restricted driving through some junctions, and then an almost straight road for 1km with increasing altitude to 15 meters, then the remaining 1km with decreasing altitude to 5 meters, then I turn around and come back the same route.

At 65km/h this 1900kg vehicle has to do around 3kW extra work when going up the hill, and respectively gains around 3kW when going down the hill. That's why the acceleration looks so linear - the difference in torque before 70km/h and after 70km/h is almost entirely offset by the hill. (1900kg * 9.81m/s² * 10m / (1km / 65km/h * 3600s/h) = 186390 J / 55 s = 3365W)

If these same test runs were done on a level road, compared to this one, in the portion below 70km/h, before the halfway point, there would be about 20% faster acceleration and the portion above 70km/h would have about 20% slower acceleration. I'm not sure about what the effect on final speed would be as this length of road isn't enough to show what the sustained top speed is, regardless of whether there is a hill or not.
User avatar
celeron55
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by celeron55 »

Today? Well, the usual of course, nord locks flying around the driveway.
20211015_205805.jpg
20211015_210408.jpg
User avatar
celeron55
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: Previa madness vol.2, (i.e. oh no, celeron55 is messing around again!)

Post by celeron55 »

A friend offered to make a new spacer out of steel. The steel turned out to be something ridiculously hard like Hardox 400. :mrgreen: That's a 10x upgrade in yield strength. We also upgraded the threads to fine pitch M10 which is what Toyota likes to use in this application. Definitely not going to come loose this time no matter how I make the motor rattle.

If someone needs such parts made I can forward your requests to him.
20211029_162949.jpg
Post Reply