Model 3 High Voltage Controller

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nkiernan
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

fredd90 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:39 pm
Good to know that the Bms system is redundant, sad to admit that my pack have some problem, the battery cells is probably good because of the high voltage measured by my fluke multimeter. 391,5v.

Is there a slight chance of cutting bottom of penthouse and measure? evshop.eu sells model 3 "bms replacement" boards for orion 2 bms, "Just replace original boards and solder" they said.


My battery was from a scrapyard, the donor car looked nearly unharmed, and has around 1600km on the odometer. roof, windshield, hood was damaged.
Could this really messed up bms readings from the end of 4 batterypacks :?
In one of the EVTV videos Collintalked about the BMS closed loop can have one break and it will continue working - the signals essentially being bidirectional. Was looking closer at my pack to see if I could source my issues and noticed one of the BMS plugs was damaged, probably when they split the battery at the breakers. Notice the plastic socket broken away from the mount on the BMS board and the two pins broken away from their tracks. Still got the CAN readings, and don't think this could is the source of any strange readings.
28.gif
I just started manually measuring at the BMS board to sense check the CAN messages
29.gif
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by collin80 »

nkiernan wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:44 pm In one of the EVTV videos Collintalked about the BMS closed loop can have one break and it will continue working - the signals essentially being bidirectional. Was looking closer at my pack to see if I could source my issues and noticed one of the BMS plugs was damaged, probably when they split the battery at the breakers. Notice the plastic socket broken away from the mount on the BMS board and the two pins broken away from their tracks. Still got the CAN readings, and don't think this could is the source of any strange readings.
Indeed I did say that and it's true. The master BMS would otherwise only need a single connection as it sends then receives on the same two wires. Signals flow both ways essentially. But, for redundancy they put two connections on the master. If it detects a fault on the ISOSPI it will then ping pong trying to send on one port then the other. If there is a break in the string this will fix it as it will find the missing modules from "the other direction." Now, that's not all. At least for a while they also put redundant chips on the module boards! You may have heard of batman and robin. Batman is the chip Damien is working with. But, these boards also have Robin. This chip can read all of the cell voltages as well. Robin cannot do any balancing and the cell voltage readings are not quite as precise. However, should batman get killed or MIA the system can use Robin instead to get the voltages. Robin is reached via the same ISOSPI pins but does not use anything even remotely like ISOSPI. It's something else entirely. If you look closely at the module BMS boards you will see FSK by the Robin chips. If you google that you find that it could mean "frequency shift keying". And, in fact, if you use an oscilloscope you'll find that this is more or less correct. Robin talks through frequency shifting and does so at a completely different frequency range from the ISOSPI-like traffic.

So, that's a high level overview of what the BMS does for inter-module communication. This seems like it should be really redundant but it's possible that there could be bugs in the code when it starts to ping pong and try to reach the whole pack from both directions.
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by fredd90 »

Tried all combinations with iso connector, left or right and both. I get the same reading of 0x401 and 0x712

So as you say, it's very well thought out to minimise malfunction, i think in my case the problem is with aluminium jumpers or flex pcb, my weekend project should have been connect pcs with Damiens new controller but now when I can't see all cell voltages it feels kinda unsafe

Ive also tried to connect hv from contactors to see if i could see the missing cells, only thing that changed was canbus message on vehicle stopped spamming 0x70A completely👍
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by muehlpower »

fredd90 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 6:09 am Tried all combinations with iso connector, left or right and both. I get the same reading of 0x401 and 0x712

So as you say, it's very well thought out to minimise malfunction, i think in my case the problem is with aluminium jumpers or flex pcb, my weekend project should have been connect pcs with Damiens new controller but now when I can't see all cell voltages it feels kinda unsafe

Ive also tried to connect hv from contactors to see if i could see the missing cells, only thing that changed was canbus message on vehicle stopped spamming 0x70A completely👍
what exactly did you do to avoid spamming?
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by fredd90 »

muehlpower wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:42 am
fredd90 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 6:09 am Tried all combinations with iso connector, left or right and both. I get the same reading of 0x401 and 0x712

So as you say, it's very well thought out to minimise malfunction, i think in my case the problem is with aluminium jumpers or flex pcb, my weekend project should have been connect pcs with Damiens new controller but now when I can't see all cell voltages it feels kinda unsafe

Ive also tried to connect hv from contactors to see if i could see the missing cells, only thing that changed was canbus message on vehicle stopped spamming 0x70A completely👍
what exactly did you do to avoid spamming?
In my quest of solving the problem with absent voltage measuring at the end cells I thought it will work if I add voltage from plus and minus from pack,
I dit this with the original harness but you can probably take 2 highly insulated cables, look at attached image.


Plus and minus from package to hv controller.
Screenshot_20210529_162442_edit_796720783543532.jpg
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

What way would the 0x401 CAN voltages map to the actual BMS boards? Row by row, or 24 values of the 32 down column 1 for module 1 BMS, then remainder of column 1 and onto column 2 for module 2, etc.

Measured all the voltages from the BMS pads and results seem ok (although low SOC overall), so want to map which ones relate to the low (red) and dummy (green) readings in 0x401.

Did wonder if the raw SPI data would have the same odd messages or if its just in the CAN conversion
30.GIF
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by muehlpower »

nkiernan wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:18 pm What way would the 0x401 CAN voltages map to the actual BMS boards? Row by row, or 24 values of the 32 down column 1 for module 1 BMS, then remainder of column 1 and onto column 2 for module 2, etc.

Measured all the voltages from the BMS pads and results seem ok (although low SOC overall), so want to map which ones relate to the low (red) and dummy (green) readings in 0x401.

Did wonder if the raw SPI data would have the same odd messages or if its just in the CAN conversion

30.GIF
have you already tried to connect only one module. Use only the A-port (dark gray)
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by muehlpower »

nkiernan wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:18 pm What way would the 0x401 CAN voltages map to the actual BMS boards? Row by row, or 24 values of the 32 down column 1 for module 1 BMS, then remainder of column 1 and onto column 2 for module 2, etc.

Measured all the voltages from the BMS pads and results seem ok (although low SOC overall), so want to map which ones relate to the low (red) and dummy (green) readings in 0x401.

Did wonder if the raw SPI data would have the same odd messages or if its just in the CAN conversion

30.GIF
At the SPI port there are always 6 values ​​from one module in a row
spi.png
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

muehlpower wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 pm
At the SPI port there are always 6 values ​​from one module in a row
spi.png
Thanks muehlpower, I will check against that. And good suggestion, hadn't tried one module at a time. Will do that.
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

muehlpower wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 pm At the SPI port there are always 6 values ​​from one module in a row
Quick query muehlpower, I got some more CAN data with individual modules connected and results don't show any improvement (ranges from 0x401 showing all zeros for module 1 and module 2, to only seeing 28 cell blocks of an expected 32, but I have some more things to try). For your capture below, how did you go about capturing that data? Were you reading raw SPI data the way Damien worked on it in the battery hacking thread using the batman chip and the breakout boards, or another method?

As fredd90 and myself are having somewhat similar issues with the integrity of the CAN data, I am wondering if reading the raw SPI data might get the correct results and the issue is only in the CAN data.
spi.gif
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by muehlpower »

nkiernan wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:31 am
muehlpower wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 pm At the SPI port there are always 6 values ​​from one module in a row
Quick query muehlpower, I got some more CAN data with individual modules connected and results don't show any improvement (ranges from 0x401 showing all zeros for module 1 and module 2, to only seeing 28 cell blocks of an expected 32, but I have some more things to try). For your capture below, how did you go about capturing that data? Were you reading raw SPI data the way Damien worked on it in the battery hacking thread using the batman chip and the breakout boards, or another method?

As fredd90 and myself are having somewhat similar issues with the integrity of the CAN data, I am wondering if reading the raw SPI data might get the correct results and the issue is only in the CAN data.

spi.gif
you can watch the SPI by using a logig analyser like this https://www.ebay.de/itm/162891933380 and Saleae Logig software. Yue can reach the pins on the underside of the opened HV controler
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

muehlpower wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:43 am
you can watch the SPI by using a logig analyser like this https://www.ebay.de/itm/162891933380 and Saleae Logig software. Yue can reach the pins on the underside of the opened HV controler
Thanks for the info :)
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

Bit of an update on the CAN logging cell voltages on the Vehicle CAN bus via 0x401. Previously I hadn't all the penthouse components connected up and the CAN logs were getting spammed with 0x70A error messages, and a number of cell blocks were missing from the logs, while other cell blocks head really low near zero readings that didn't tie up with actual measured voltages.

With Fredd90's help, I've now stopped the 0x70A spamming (most HV controller connectors, shunt and HV- and HV+ contactors have to be connected) and have some new logs. I've now got cell voltages for all 32 cell blocks (96 values) and they appear to look sensible and tie in with measured voltages.

I also found my issue with the random near zero cell readings, my own mess up. When saving the CAN logs from Savvycan and opening in excel, excel automatically removed the preceding '0's' from the hex values, distorting the true values. Correcting these by adding back in the '0' in front gives the correct values.

The second byte seems to be a 'valid' value identifier. Previously this was '2A' for valid values or '15' for generic nonsense values. Now I have a third value in the second byte, '1A'. What I noticed when filtering by '2A', I get readings for all 32 cell blocks, but only a single reading for the 32nd block and one of these was zero's like fredd90 is seeing (see image below and yellow highlighted data)
37.GIF
Filtering the second byte to '1A' however now shows only voltages for that last 32nd block and these look to be ok, so that means I appear to be able to read all 96 cell voltages.
38.GIF
Next I'll put something together in Arduino to pull out more of the relevant data to the serial monitor to save messing in excel.


I'm following Damien's BMW i3 CCS project and have an i3 LIM and the PCS controller, so hoping to be able to get charging shortly. Not just sure how to go about testing/proving the TM3 HV controller BMS section might be doing what its supposed to and if this setup could be usable as is. Would appreciate if anyone could suggest the best next steps?
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by muehlpower »

nkiernan wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:11 pm

The second byte seems to be a 'valid' value identifier. Previously this was '2A' for valid values or '15' for generic nonsense values. Now I have a third value in the second byte, '1A'. What I noticed when filtering by '2A', I get readings for all 32 cell blocks, but only a single reading for the 32nd block and one of these was zero's like fredd90 is seeing (see image below and yellow highlighted data)

ou have to look at the 2 byte binary, then you will understand how it works.

00 10 10 10 means everthing OK (2Ah)
00 01 10 10 means last value wrong, rest OK (1Ah)
00 10 01 10 means second value wrong, rest OK (26h)
00 01 01 01 means everytin wrong (15h)
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

muehlpower wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:48 pm
ou have to look at the 2 byte binary, then you will understand how it works.

00 10 10 10 means everthing OK (2Ah)
00 01 10 10 means last value wrong, rest OK (1Ah)
00 10 01 10 means second value wrong, rest OK (26h)
00 01 01 01 means everytin wrong (15h)
Ahh, ok, I see it now. I have a problem in that last cell block to find so. Thanks for the explanation
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

Still waiting on the SPI analyzer to arrive. Now the 0x70A spamming can be stopped, I did some more CAN captures on individual modules. What I did notice was that using the BMS plug in the round plastic ring, that normally fits to module 1, on each module separately gives a consistent stream of voltage data on 0x401 for each of the eight cell blocks for the modules.

Using the BMS plug in the plastic ring that normally fits module 4 (positive side) on both module 4 and module 3 gave sparse voltage readings and doesn't look to be transmitting all the data as good as in the test above (damaged wiring!?).

However, both tests still show voltage 3 of cell block 31 as 0V and narrowed down to module 4. Checking again at each of the pads along the BMS board shows correct voltages coming from the battery to the BMS board for all 3 voltages of all 8 cell blocks (24 values), just the BMS board only appears to be reading 23 values (maybe incorrectly reading the 23).

Looking a little closer at the module 4 BMS board and then comparing to the other three, I noticed what looks like a burnt section near the middle (circled in the photo below):
45g.gif
The BMS board on module 2 has a similar layout (1 and 3 are slightly different) so for comparison:
43g.gif
So maybe the module 4 BMS has a small failure affecting that last reading, although strange it appears 23 of the 24 values look to be working. And maybe the BMS connector in the plastic ring that normally fits to this BMS board having sparse data transfer is linked. I wondered if a crashed car setting of the pyro fuse for example may have some knock-on effect to the BMS board on the positive side of the battery (module 4) and maybe also the BMS wiring from that board. If this could be the case, there may be different levels of damage and explain fredd90's issue also. Maybe its the High Voltage Controller that gets the knock-on effect, and could be that this is where the problem lies, not the module 4 BMS.

I will try find some replacement BMS boards to test, and take a closer look at that burnt area on the board to see if there's something to repair.
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by collin80 »

muehlpower wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:48 pm You have to look at the 2 byte binary, then you will understand how it works.

00 10 10 10 means everthing OK (2Ah)
00 01 10 10 means last value wrong, rest OK (1Ah)
00 10 01 10 means second value wrong, rest OK (26h)
00 01 01 01 means everytin wrong (15h)
Yup, you're right. Each CAN message has three voltages and three status outputs, each 2 bits.

0 (00) = should only happen if things are really dead. Otherwise you'd get one of the below three
1 (01) = this cell reading is bad
2 (10) = this cell reading is OK
3 (11) = Cell is currently bypassed (balancing?)

So, I don't have much to add except to say that there is the potential of an output of binary 11 or 3 and it does have a meaning.
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by fredd90 »

nkiernan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:59 pm Still waiting on the SPI analyzer to arrive. Now the 0x70A spamming can be stopped, I did some more CAN captures on individual modules. What I did notice was that using the BMS plug in the round plastic ring, that normally fits to module 1, on each module separately gives a consistent stream of voltage data on 0x401 for each of the eight cell blocks for the modules.

Using the BMS plug in the plastic ring that normally fits module 4 (positive side) on both module 4 and module 3 gave sparse voltage readings and doesn't look to be transmitting all the data as good as in the test above (damaged wiring!?).

However, both tests still show voltage 3 of cell block 31 as 0V and narrowed down to module 4. Checking again at each of the pads along the BMS board shows correct voltages coming from the battery to the BMS board for all 3 voltages of all 8 cell blocks (24 values), just the BMS board only appears to be reading 23 values (maybe incorrectly reading the 23).

Looking a little closer at the module 4 BMS board and then comparing to the other three, I noticed what looks like a burnt section near the middle (circled in the photo below):

45g.gif

The BMS board on module 2 has a similar layout (1 and 3 are slightly different) so for comparison:

43g.gif

So maybe the module 4 BMS has a small failure affecting that last reading, although strange it appears 23 of the 24 values look to be working. And maybe the BMS connector in the plastic ring that normally fits to this BMS board having sparse data transfer is linked. I wondered if a crashed car setting of the pyro fuse for example may have some knock-on effect to the BMS board on the positive side of the battery (module 4) and maybe also the BMS wiring from that board. If this could be the case, there may be different levels of damage and explain fredd90's issue also. Maybe its the High Voltage Controller that gets the knock-on effect, and could be that this is where the problem lies, not the module 4 BMS.

I will try find some replacement BMS boards to test, and take a closer look at that burnt area on the board to see if there's something to repair.
Good to see that you get rid of the nasty 0x70A,
My battery got a fresh pyrofuse with reading 0,0 ohm so in this case that's not the origin of my problem,

This weekend i will fit new contactors and precharge resistor then mount pcs and hv controller👍 Hopefully I will be able to do some testing with pcs😊
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by muehlpower »

nkiernan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:59 pm Still waiting on the SPI analyzer to arrive. Now the 0x70A spamming can be stopped, I did some more CAN captures on individual modules. What I did notice was that using the BMS plug in the round plastic ring, that normally fits to module 1, on each module separately gives a consistent stream of voltage data on 0x401 for each of the eight cell blocks for the modules.

Using the BMS plug in the plastic ring that normally fits module 4 (positive side) on both module 4 and module 3 gave sparse voltage readings and doesn't look to be transmitting all the data as good as in the test above (damaged wiring!?).

However, both tests still show voltage 3 of cell block 31 as 0V and narrowed down to module 4. Checking again at each of the pads along the BMS board shows correct voltages coming from the battery to the BMS board for all 3 voltages of all 8 cell blocks (24 values), just the BMS board only appears to be reading 23 values (maybe incorrectly reading the 23).

Looking a little closer at the module 4 BMS board and then comparing to the other three, I noticed what looks like a burnt section near the middle (circled in the photo below):

45g.gif

The BMS board on module 2 has a similar layout (1 and 3 are slightly different) so for comparison:

43g.gif

So maybe the module 4 BMS has a small failure affecting that last reading, although strange it appears 23 of the 24 values look to be working. And maybe the BMS connector in the plastic ring that normally fits to this BMS board having sparse data transfer is linked. I wondered if a crashed car setting of the pyro fuse for example may have some knock-on effect to the BMS board on the positive side of the battery (module 4) and maybe also the BMS wiring from that board. If this could be the case, there may be different levels of damage and explain fredd90's issue also. Maybe its the High Voltage Controller that gets the knock-on effect, and could be that this is where the problem lies, not the module 4 BMS.

I will try find some replacement BMS boards to test, and take a closer look at that burnt area on the board to see if there's something to repair.

I have exakt the board you need, number 4 of a short range. I woud cange it to your broken one, cause I only need the Batman Chips.
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

muehlpower wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:35 pm
I have exakt the board you need, number 4 of a short range. I woud cange it to your broken one, cause I only need the Batman Chips.
I will send you a PM :)
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

Short update.

Thanks to a forum member I got hold of a spare BMS board, but before I got into removing the old BMS and starting the diagnosis of missing cell voltages, the breakers I got the battery pack at kindly agreed to replace the four modules with another set. Running the same tests on the new modules now showed up all 96 cell voltages as expected. Couldn't finish the BMS board testing as I had to return the items, so assumption is still that the BMS board was at fault.

Some Arduino work and I can now connect to either CAN bus from the HV controller and read the key CAN ID's discussed earlier.
53g.gif
54g.gif
New pack is sitting at 382.2V and everything looks in order, but interestingly the data in 0x292 which shows some info on SOC still shows the data from the previous four modules and a low SOC %. Looks like this is saved in the HV controller and must need a call from the car possibly to update for the latest info / new pack.
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by muehlpower »

can someone tell me which cable, gray and black plug, goes to battery module 1 and 4. I reworked my wiring harness and didn't write it down :-(
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by nkiernan »

Just checked, black goes to module 1 and grey to module 4
57.gif
56.gif
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by amzoo »

Didn't realize this thread existed! Adding myself into this effort. I have a US long range pack with all penthouse components.

Connector:
I've seen two different part numbers for this, haven't talked to any suppliers yet
Sumitomo TS Sealed Series
6189-6934 https://kinkong-connector.com/ru/produc ... D2081.html#
6189-7077 http://prd.sws.co.jp/components/en/deta ... s=61897077
(Screenshots attached if URLs are down)

Simple 3D STEP files for the 6189-7077 are attached as well. If I can't find a supplier (once I confirm BMS functionality), then I'll model the connectors fully and 3D print them.
Attachments
6189-7077open.stp
(978 KiB) Downloaded 138 times
6189-7077close.stp
(978.37 KiB) Downloaded 123 times
Screenshot 2021-09-21 114149.png
Screenshot 2021-09-21 114958.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-18 at 3.46.10 PM.png
IMG_3905.jpeg
IMG_3906.jpeg
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Re: Model 3 High Voltage Controller

Post by amzoo »

I also have these cell tap boards for anyone interested. They use pogo pings to touch onto the battery BMS boards without damaging any of the existing connections. I used them when I used the Orion BMS, but would rather get the Tesla penthouse fully functional.
Attachments
Screenshot 2021-09-21 120219.png
Screenshot 2021-09-21 120231.png
Screenshot 2021-09-21 115847.png
Screenshot 2021-09-21 115907.png
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